So, as of January 2021, do we think that Trump was a fascist at heart?

[Blue3]

https://twitter.com/Olivianuzzi/status/1347708012149026818

[Inmate Trump]

He’s a fascist, and so is anyone who still supports him.

Some who no longer support him, but supported him through everything else...WHEN THE REST OF US KNEW SOMETHING LIKE THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND WE WARNED YOU...are also fascists.

[Mr. Illini]

He has strong fascistic tendencies and a share of the folks who support him (including many who marched on the Capitol) are real life ideological fascists.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

So how is this not a fascist?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

So how is this not a fascist?

Because the term fascist isn't an umbrella term for "self-centered right-wing egotists with bad records I don't like".

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

So how is this not a fascist?

Because the term fascist isn't an umbrella term for "self-centered right-wing egotists with bad records I don't like".

Well fair enough, but what definition of fascism are you using that could possibly exclude Trump?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

So how is this not a fascist?

Because the term fascist isn't an umbrella term for "self-centered right-wing egotists with bad records I don't like".

Well fair enough, but what definition of fascism are you using that could possibly exclude Trump?

I personally went back and forth many times over whether Trump was a fascist or not. But at core, there was an argument I came back to time and time again - Trump is so transactional, so driven by pure perceived personal self-interest, than he can't be pinned down too much ideologically other than "he's right wing overall". He's a Florida Man elevated to Oval Office, and he's more similar in the relative looseness of his overall political thought to the typical voter as opposed to the typical politician. It's quite telling how people talk of the Senate GOP and House GOP as distinct from Trump - I think a lot of people know how irregular he is (something derived from his status as not a career politician), but they don't realize just how many things that entails.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

So how is this not a fascist?

Because the term fascist isn't an umbrella term for "self-centered right-wing egotists with bad records I don't like".

Well fair enough, but what definition of fascism are you using that could possibly exclude Trump?

I personally went back and forth many times over whether Trump was a fascist or not. But at core, there was an argument I came back to time and time again - Trump is so transactional, so driven by pure perceived personal self-interest, than he can't be pinned down too much ideologically other than "he's right wing overall". He's a Florida Man elevated to Oval Office, and he's more similar in the relative looseness of his overall political thought to the typical voter as opposed to the typical politician. It's quite telling how people talk of the Senate GOP and House GOP as distinct from Trump - I think a lot of people know how irregular he is (something derived from his status as not a career politician), but they don't realize just how many things that entails.

Right...thank you for laying that out. Because he definitely has authoritarian tendencies, but no overarching ethos to what he wants besides self-servingness and adulation. 

He runs things like a CEO, not a dictator.  He delegates, delegates, delegates, then if they screw up or talk bad about them; they aren't executed but fired or yelled at in an angry tweet (well, up to yesterday anyway, heh). He delegated everything to the states in the coronavirus response, which many complained about him "not acting MORE like a dictator".

The disjoined effort to storm the capitol was more organic and chaotic as a few did have ideas of a coup, but I would bet the rest just wanted to occupy the building.  He didn't give a clear message; he never does.

So what is he? A bad CEO/salesman that loves attention that tried to be that one leader everyone would love.  He's like the copier salesman in the The Postman, a tribal chief.



 

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

So how is this not a fascist?

Because the term fascist isn't an umbrella term for "self-centered right-wing egotists with bad records I don't like".

Well fair enough, but what definition of fascism are you using that could possibly exclude Trump?

I personally went back and forth many times over whether Trump was a fascist or not. But at core, there was an argument I came back to time and time again - Trump is so transactional, so driven by pure perceived personal self-interest, than he can't be pinned down too much ideologically other than "he's right wing overall". He's a Florida Man elevated to Oval Office, and he's more similar in the relative looseness of his overall political thought to the typical voter as opposed to the typical politician. It's quite telling how people talk of the Senate GOP and House GOP as distinct from Trump - I think a lot of people know how irregular he is (something derived from his status as not a career politician), but they don't realize just how many things that entails.

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

So how is this not a fascist?

Because the term fascist isn't an umbrella term for "self-centered right-wing egotists with bad records I don't like".

Well fair enough, but what definition of fascism are you using that could possibly exclude Trump?

I personally went back and forth many times over whether Trump was a fascist or not. But at core, there was an argument I came back to time and time again - Trump is so transactional, so driven by pure perceived personal self-interest, than he can't be pinned down too much ideologically other than "he's right wing overall". He's a Florida Man elevated to Oval Office, and he's more similar in the relative looseness of his overall political thought to the typical voter as opposed to the typical politician. It's quite telling how people talk of the Senate GOP and House GOP as distinct from Trump - I think a lot of people know how irregular he is (something derived from his status as not a career politician), but they don't realize just how many things that entails.

Right...thank you for laying that out. Because he definitely has authoritarian tendencies, but no overarching ethos to what he wants besides self-servingness and adulation. 

He runs things like a CEO, not a dictator.  He delegates, delegates, delegates, then if they screw up or talk bad about them; they aren't executed but fired or yelled at in an angry tweet (well, up to yesterday anyway, heh). He delegated everything to the states in the coronavirus response, which many complained about him "not acting MORE like a dictator".

The disjoined effort to storm the capitol was more organic and chaotic as a few did have ideas of a coup, but I would bet the rest just wanted to occupy the building.  He didn't give a clear message; he never does.

So what is he? A bad CEO/salesman that loves attention that tried to be that one leader everyone would love.  He's like the copier salesman in the The Postman, a tribal chief.

Guys, something you are missing is that fascism itself doesn’t have that much of a coherent policy platform.
The only strict commonalities between fascist movements are a belief in national renewal rooted in romantic nationalism (check), a belief that the nation is being undermined by subversive elements, in particular leftists, minorities, and elites, usually in cooperation with foreign actors (that’s a big check), devotion to a single strong leader (check), and a willingness to use both state and extra-state actors to replace or subvert the existing legal regime to the leader’s will and eliminate dissenters. (Check)

And in the aesthetic level, we can throw in an obsession with masculine strength and a paranoid fear that someone somewhere is maybe not being as worshipful as they should be.


Look, it maybe that Donald Trump doesn’t really super believe in all the proud boy stuff, but he very much believes in himself as supreme leader and he stitched together all the proto-fascist  elements in the GOP to make himself a movement to make it happen. So it’s close enough that I’m going to count it.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Guys, something you are missing is that fascism itself doesn’t have that much of a coherent policy platform.
The only strict commonalities between fascist movements are a belief in national renewal rooted in romantic nationalism (check), a belief that the nation is being undermined by subversive elements, in particular leftists, minorities, and elites, usually in cooperation with foreign actors (that’s a big check), devotion to a single strong leader (check), and a willingness to use both state and extra-state actors to replace or subvert the existing legal regime to the leader’s will and eliminate dissenters. (Check)

And in the aesthetic level, we can throw in an obsession with masculine strength and a paranoid fear that someone somewhere is maybe not being as worshipful as they should be.


Look, it maybe that Donald Trump doesn’t really super believe in all the proud boy stuff, but he very much believes in himself as supreme leader and he stitched together all the proto-fascist  elements in the GOP to make himself a movement to make it happen. So it’s close enough that I’m going to count it.

Feel free to use your personal definition of fascism. Fascism is notoriously hard to define.
I just don't feel comfortable calling Trump a fascist because the range of what the term applies to is smaller in my view, and Trump is enough of a unique character that I feel it's very imprecise in this case.

[pbrower2a]

He's not a fascist at heart. But he's an amoral man with an immoral record, with demagogery on his resume, with an unhealthy entitlement complex, with an inflated sense of self-worth, with a lack of regard for how his actions might impact others.

So how is this not a fascist?

Because the term fascist isn't an umbrella term for "self-centered right-wing egotists with bad records I don't like".

Well fair enough, but what definition of fascism are you using that could possibly exclude Trump?

I personally went back and forth many times over whether Trump was a fascist or not. But at core, there was an argument I came back to time and time again - Trump is so transactional, so driven by pure perceived personal self-interest, than he can't be pinned down too much ideologically other than "he's right wing overall". He's a Florida Man elevated to Oval Office, and he's more similar in the relative looseness of his overall political thought to the typical voter as opposed to the typical politician. It's quite telling how people talk of the Senate GOP and House GOP as distinct from Trump - I think a lot of people know how irregular he is (something derived from his status as not a career politician), but they don't realize just how many things that entails.

Right...thank you for laying that out. Because he definitely has authoritarian tendencies, but no overarching ethos to what he wants besides self-servingness and adulation. 

He runs things like a CEO, not a dictator.  He delegates, delegates, delegates, then if they screw up or talk bad about them; they aren't executed but fired or yelled at in an angry tweet (well, up to yesterday anyway, heh). He delegated everything to the states in the coronavirus response, which many complained about him "not acting MORE like a dictator".

Hitler also delegated, delegated, delegated, and then turned harshly on anyone who showed dissent or who messed up. Our system does not yet allow the Leader to refer someone to the Gestapo or OGPU for severe consequences -- concentration camp or death. The states ended up with responsibility for handling COVID-19 because Trump trivialized the consequences.  We are now approaching death tolls as high as the populations of a city with a declining population (Cleveland) and one with a rising population (Bakersfield). The states did things differently, which demonstrates that some places are completely inappropriate for any vacation trip.

Nobody says that dictatorial leaders are especially competent.

The disjoined effort to storm the capitol was more organic and chaotic as a few did have ideas of a coup, but I would bet the rest just wanted to occupy the building.  He didn't give a clear message; he never does.

I once got into an argument with a Holocaust denier who said that because Adolf Hitler never gave a written or recorded order to exterminate the Jews it never happened. He needed write no such order. I am sure that he was monitoring the results... and did nothing to stop it, indicating that he approved. As an analogue, about everyone now believes that Al Capone was behind the St. Valentine's Day Massacre in Chicago. Capone rarely needed to write an order.  
  

So what is he? A bad CEO/salesman that loves attention that tried to be that one leader everyone would love.  He's like the copier salesman in the The Postman, a tribal chief.  

He is a horrible person who has gotten away with all sorts of bad stuff since he was a child, someone that nobody could stop if he set his mind onto something. He's done plenty of harebrained stuff in his adult life and that continues to the Presidency. He gave vague orders as suggestions, and people carried those out.  

[Badger]

The fact that he is a self-serving want to be a Thor Therrien strongman dictator and isn't intelligent enough to know the textbook definition of fascism does not absolve him of absolutely instinctually - - at hard ful - - being a fascist.

I think this is absolutely incontrovertible now, other than some differing between be precise definitions between right-wing authoritarianism and fascism.

[Badger]

I do love how there was this catchphrase among socialists and far leftist that goes “scratch a lib and a fascist bleeds”. Yet these past 4 years under the closest to a fascist we have had in office we have seen this segment of leftist like Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, Chapo Trap House, and posters like Jfern and Big Abraham that spend there time only attacking mainstream democrats just to be a contrarian and in cases outright defend Trump

People like you are going to ignore everything bad that Biden did. The difference is that no one ignored what Trump did.

The fact that Del Taco was the only poster to recommend your sh**tpost demonstrates that horseshoe theory is alive and well.

[Badger]

To call Trump a fascist would imply he has some fidelity to an ideological project bigger than his own casual whims, which I don't really believe to be the case

That, plus what Big Abe said

There is nothing casual about his whims, and what he's willing to do or tear down to obtain them.