Islam and left-wing extremism

[PSOL]

Was hoping for a blurb about how the PLO was part of the Third Wave of Rebel Terror and inquiring as to the intersection, yet we have this mess instead.

Lmao.

Reminds me of that one guy from Black Lagoon.

Hell, for that matter the Joint List in Israel is basically a leftist/Islamist coalition, with a smaller contingent of bourgeois Arab nationalists. There is a "there" there, Hades is just very poorly equipped to correctly put his finger on it.

Or the pretty firm embrace of both Bernie '16 and '20 in the Muslim community.

Well this is an expired take given that the Islamists have left the Joint List recently.

On why Muslims sided with Sanders, it had a great deal that he appeared genuinely to many as the “anti-imperialist” candidate who “told it like it is”. That greatly cuts through the fractious generational and class differences among the Muslim community in the United States.

[I Stand With TRKL1917]

Islamic left-wing extremism is unironically based and we need more of it.

[Former President tack50]

My takes on this dumpster fire of a thread:

1) This is why the historical avatars were a bad idea. If you want to be a full on tankie; just use an S-Cuba avatar. Or maybe someone can design North Korea avatars so we can have an S-NK avatar as well.

2) I am not the greatest fan of a certain type of left wing politician that tends to excuse muslims when they do the same things that they criticize conservatives for; notably on sexist and homophobic attitudes and what not. This kind of left wing politician is not common but it does exist. I am reminded of the muslim led homophobic protests in Birmingham where some of the Labour local politicians supported it? (can one of the British posters fact check me on this? I have no idea if the local Labour politicans supported it or not but I do remember it being a scandal)

This is why I generally prefer the socdem parties to the green parties in places in Europe which have both as the green parties tend to be more guilty of this (this is not the only reason though)

3) Point 2 does not mean that many muslims in Europe can't genuinely suffer from discrimination* due to their religion; or that discrimination is justified because it isn't.

4) At the risk of falling into a "no true Scotsman" argument; and following from #2 I would argue that most left wing extremists (communists and what not) don't reallly have a consistent position on this issue. I imagine some will be intersectionalist #woke tankies who ignore that kind of thing; others will be part of the "Nazbol gang" and have hardline anti-immigration positions that would not be out of place in a party like Lega or AfD and other tankies will just ignore social issues and just focus on economics.

The only thing they will have in common is blaming capitalism for all of that somehow.

<sup>*: Unlike PR; I would say that the word racism here is indeed inaccurate because islam is not a race; but that doesn't mean that the discrimination is justified either.

If you want to talk about racism you could however talk about racism against arabs though. A surprisingly popular take I've seen is that "black illegal immigrants are ok and want to just work and live an honest life; arabs are not because they only come to do crimes</sup>

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

My first post in this thread was, probably rightly, modified for personal attack, so I'll reiterate a more polite and composed version of the jao that plenty of OP's remarks on this are actually profoundly, savagely right-wing, not just a center-left style that current leftist orthodoxy finds uncomfortably laicist. "American criminal justice and welfare policy are better than ours because the Mussulmen can't benefit from them" is almost a parody of something a hardcore European right-winger would think.

[afleitch]

I am reminded of the muslim led homophobic protests in Birmingham where some of the Labour local politicians supported it? (can one of the British posters fact check me on this? I have no idea if the local Labour politicans supported it or not but I do remember it being a scandal)

Only notably Roger Godsiff who was a conservative Labour MP and his support had little to do with the 'community'.

A very close gay Muslim friend involved in LGBT advocacy was involved in discussions in Birmingham with his own community. The main issue was that a core disenfranchised group of parents (disenfranchised within the wider Muslim community both culturally and socislly) were being fed lies and half truths about what was happening in the school which itself led to backlash against the protest organiser. There's been a lot of work done to combat this since the protest restriction was put in place around the school.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

<sup>*: Unlike PR; I would say that the word racism here is indeed inaccurate because islam is not a race; but that doesn't mean that the discrimination is justified either.

If you want to talk about racism you could however talk about racism against arabs though. A surprisingly popular take I've seen is that "black illegal immigrants are ok and want to just work and live an honest life; arabs are not because they only come to do crimes</sup>

What the hell? Who says that? I've never heard it from anyone (although I've heard takes along the lines of "blacks are ok because they are mostly christians; arabs are not because they are muslims").

[Former President tack50]

<sup>*: Unlike PR; I would say that the word racism here is indeed inaccurate because islam is not a race; but that doesn't mean that the discrimination is justified either.

If you want to talk about racism you could however talk about racism against arabs though. A surprisingly popular take I've seen is that "black illegal immigrants are ok and want to just work and live an honest life; arabs are not because they only come to do crimes</sup>

What the hell? Who says that? I've never heard it from anyone (although I've heard takes along the lines of "blacks are ok because they are mostly christians; arabs are not because they are muslims").

I mean, it is 100% anectdotal evidence, but that was quite the hot take in a reunion I had the other day with some people I know Not my closest friends or anything but still a bunch of people I meet up sometimes.

A Spanish (flawed) survey did find out that blacks were above arabs and middle easterners in their "approval rating" though (in fact subsaharan African immigrants polled barely above water with like a 5.1/10; while Arabs were the only immigrant group below water at something like 4.2/10)

Of course it also helps that middle eastern immigrants are upwards of 95% muslim; while as significant amount of subsaharan Africans are christian. (which doesn't include black immigrants in Spain from places like the Dominican Republic or Cuba; but those are a very different group despite being the same ""race"")

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

My first post in this thread was, probably rightly, modified for personal attack, so I'll reiterate a more polite and composed version of the jao that plenty of OP's remarks on this are actually profoundly, savagely right-wing, not just a center-left style that current leftist orthodoxy finds uncomfortably laicist. "American criminal justice and welfare policy are better than ours because the Mussulmen can't benefit from them" is almost a parody of something a hardcore European right-winger would think.

Your first post was a hard truth censored by the powers that be.
Also, it's not the first time someone supposedly not right-wing makes savagely right-wing takes about the undesirables, is it? And of course the Christian cross thing is icing on the cake (Trump's Bible photo-op and Salvini's performative rosary fetish say hello).

[Alcibiades]

<sup>*: Unlike PR; I would say that the word racism here is indeed inaccurate because islam is not a race; but that doesn't mean that the discrimination is justified either.

If you want to talk about racism you could however talk about racism against arabs though. A surprisingly popular take I've seen is that "black illegal immigrants are ok and want to just work and live an honest life; arabs are not because they only come to do crimes</sup>

What the hell? Who says that? I've never heard it from anyone (although I've heard takes along the lines of "blacks are ok because they are mostly christians; arabs are not because they are muslims").

Not about illegal immigrants, but certainly in the UK the far-right prefers to direct their ire at British Muslims rather than black Britons, who, unlike in the 80s, they mostly ignore now.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Also, it's not the first time someone supposedly not right-wing makes savagely right-wing takes about the undesirables, is it?

Hell, you could argue that this sentence is an apt summary of much Progressive Era social policy, so in a way, Hades is carrying on in a long center-left tradition!

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

<sup>*: Unlike PR; I would say that the word racism here is indeed inaccurate because islam is not a race; but that doesn't mean that the discrimination is justified either.

If you want to talk about racism you could however talk about racism against arabs though. A surprisingly popular take I've seen is that "black illegal immigrants are ok and want to just work and live an honest life; arabs are not because they only come to do crimes</sup>

What the hell? Who says that? I've never heard it from anyone (although I've heard takes along the lines of "blacks are ok because they are mostly christians; arabs are not because they are muslims").

Not about illegal immigrants, but certainly in the UK the far-right prefers to direct their ire at British Muslims rather than black Britons, who, unlike in the 80s, they mostly ignore now.

Were there more Black people than Muslims in the UK in the 1980's? I know that today the opposite is definitely true (of course the current fixation with Muslims is not an exclusively British thing).

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

<sup>*: Unlike PR; I would say that the word racism here is indeed inaccurate because islam is not a race; but that doesn't mean that the discrimination is justified either.

If you want to talk about racism you could however talk about racism against arabs though. A surprisingly popular take I've seen is that "black illegal immigrants are ok and want to just work and live an honest life; arabs are not because they only come to do crimes</sup>

What the hell? Who says that? I've never heard it from anyone (although I've heard takes along the lines of "blacks are ok because they are mostly christians; arabs are not because they are muslims").

Not about illegal immigrants, but certainly in the UK the far-right prefers to direct their ire at British Muslims rather than black Britons, who, unlike in the 80s, they mostly ignore now.

Were there more Black people than Muslims in the UK in the 1980's? I know that today the opposite is definitely true (of course the current fixation with Muslims is not an exclusively British thing).

My understanding is that back during the Empire Windrush/Enoch Powell era immigration to Britain mostly came from the Caribbean, but I don't know exactly when that changed.

[Alcibiades]

<sup>*: Unlike PR; I would say that the word racism here is indeed inaccurate because islam is not a race; but that doesn't mean that the discrimination is justified either.

If you want to talk about racism you could however talk about racism against arabs though. A surprisingly popular take I've seen is that "black illegal immigrants are ok and want to just work and live an honest life; arabs are not because they only come to do crimes</sup>

What the hell? Who says that? I've never heard it from anyone (although I've heard takes along the lines of "blacks are ok because they are mostly christians; arabs are not because they are muslims").

Not about illegal immigrants, but certainly in the UK the far-right prefers to direct their ire at British Muslims rather than black Britons, who, unlike in the 80s, they mostly ignore now.

Were there more Black people than Muslims in the UK in the 1980's? I know that today the opposite is definitely true (of course the current fixation with Muslims is not an exclusively British thing).

Probably, considering there are only barely more Muslims than black people in the UK today (4.4% vs 3% as of the last census) although I can’t find the data.

[afleitch]

<sup>*: Unlike PR; I would say that the word racism here is indeed inaccurate because islam is not a race; but that doesn't mean that the discrimination is justified either.

If you want to talk about racism you could however talk about racism against arabs though. A surprisingly popular take I've seen is that "black illegal immigrants are ok and want to just work and live an honest life; arabs are not because they only come to do crimes</sup>

What the hell? Who says that? I've never heard it from anyone (although I've heard takes along the lines of "blacks are ok because they are mostly christians; arabs are not because they are muslims").

Not about illegal immigrants, but certainly in the UK the far-right prefers to direct their ire at British Muslims rather than black Britons, who, unlike in the 80s, they mostly ignore now.

Were there more Black people than Muslims in the UK in the 1980's? I know that today the opposite is definitely true (of course the current fixation with Muslims is not an exclusively British thing).

Probably, considering there are only barely more Muslims than black people in the UK today (4.4% vs 3% as of the last census) although I can’t find the data.

Fun fact Friday

Self declared ethnicity was only really formally recorded in the 1991 Census for the first time. Country of origin was though, but that meant a lot of African migrants counted in 1981 were expelled Gujurati's from Uganda for example

West Indians were the largest group in the 1971 census but were overtaken by 1981 by Indian arrivals and saw a net population decline; some had returned to their countries of birth, new families were more mixed etc. West Indian immigration was really just one short invitational burst. It peaked in 1960 and was overtaken by arrivals from India and Pakistan just three years later.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Only notably Roger Godsiff who was a conservative Labour MP and his support had little to do with the 'community'.

He was the only one very vocal about it, and this was probably for purely cynical reasons - backfired, though. Shabana Mahmood was more subtly supportive, and this may be why she is presently a backbencher despite having exactly the sort of profile (frontbench and constantly rising under Miliband, backbench under Corbyn) that Starmer tends to give jobs to. There was some annoyance that she commented at all as it wasn't a constituency matter for her. The leadership of the City Council was particularly seething IIRC - felt that she was interfering and undermining them when it wasn't any of her business. In terms of local politicians, well, you had people like Salma Yaqoob who gave soft but clear support to the protesters while putting on a different face to other audiences, but then she's not 'Labour' even if she is for the moment a party member. City councillors from the Mirpuri community were split in different directions, which is usually the way when there's a blow-up like this because this is a community with as many different tendencies and worldviews as any other.

[Blair]

Only notably Roger Godsiff who was a conservative Labour MP and his support had little to do with the 'community'.

He was the only one very vocal about it, and this was probably for purely cynical reasons - backfired, though. Shabana Mahmood was more subtly supportive, and this may be why she is presently a backbencher despite having exactly the sort of profile (frontbench and constantly rising under Miliband, backbench under Corbyn) that Starmer tends to give jobs to. There was some annoyance that she commented at all as it wasn't a constituency matter for her. The leadership of the City Council was particularly seething IIRC - felt that she was interfering and undermining them when it wasn't any of her business. In terms of local politicians, well, you had people like Salma Yaqoob who gave soft but clear support to the protesters while putting on a different face to other audiences, but then she's not 'Labour' even if she is for the moment a party member. City councillors from the Mirpuri community were split in different directions, which is usually the way when there's a blow-up like this because this is a community with as many different tendencies and worldviews as any other.

One of the most satisfying moments for me in Labour politics over the last 10 years was Nick Brown getting Godstiff removed as a PPC in 2019.

Shabana Mahmoods comments show the stupidy of when MPs parrot their mailbag & blindly follow the current rush; rather than actually thinking A.) Whether they need to comment B.) What they're actually saying. It's unrelated but you've seen MPs embarrass themselves over 5G theories & other issues when they stand up without thinking... you'd have thought she would have known better.

[jaymichaud]

Because they're 'intersectional', of course.

[The Houstonian]

It seems to boil down to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." American foreign policy has demonstrated how dangerously wrong this is.