PA-SN 2022 megathread: Shrek vs. The Wizard of Oz

[😥]

I know, I know, the comparisons are played out. But Georgia just elected a black pastor and a Jewish millennial and we're still doing the whole "Kenyatta is unelectable because he's gay and black" spiel. Give me a break.

One moment: Georgia isn't Pennsylvania

[Skunk]

I know, I know, the comparisons are played out. But Georgia just elected a black pastor and a Jewish millennial and we're still doing the whole "Kenyatta is unelectable because he's gay and black" spiel. Give me a break.

One moment: Georgia isn't Pennsylvania

Wow really, I'd never considered that before.

Look, does anyone here have an actual reason why Fetterman is supposedly so much more electable than Kenyatta other than the fact he happens to fit our stereotype of what a white working class voter happens to look like? I can understand this argument with someone like Cartwright, who has actually had electoral overperformance in federal races before, but Fetterman's only won races in a heavily Democratic city and a crowded primary for lieutenant governor where he was the only Western Pennsylvania candidate running.

If you view swing voters in Pennsylvania as all racists and homophobes who won't vote for Kenyatta because he's a scary gay black man, then just be up front and say that. Both Kenyatta and Fetterman seem absolutely fine on policy and I'd be happy to run with either, but y'all need to actually base your arguments against Kenyatta on something more tangible than an imaginary aura of electability that Fetterman has.

[Mr. Smith]

Gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of the Cartwright support comes from people who haven't heard the man speak. Great rep, but not exactly bursting with charisma. Fetterman and Kenyatta, particularly Fetterman, would be better options.

Surely - not Kenyatta. Black, gay, from Philadelphia..... Almost any Republican candidate will crush him, and you may get some much worse Senator, then Toomey,

Yeah these kinds of candidates never win, remember how the democrats blew a senate race back in Illinois in 2004. Obama  Black, Not African American, Muslim Sounding Name, From Chicago. Almost every republican will crush him.

Pennsylvania is substantislly more republican, then Illinois, and you know that. Biden, who  was born there (Scranton, not Philly...), is white, straight, and so on, won it by relatively small margin... So, your irony is useless here..

Wisconsin...2012. Madison lesbo didn't stand a chance.

[😥]

I know, I know, the comparisons are played out. But Georgia just elected a black pastor and a Jewish millennial and we're still doing the whole "Kenyatta is unelectable because he's gay and black" spiel. Give me a break.

One moment: Georgia isn't Pennsylvania

Wow really, I'd never considered that before.

Look, does anyone here have an actual reason why Fetterman is supposedly so much more electable than Kenyatta other than the fact he happens to fit our stereotype of what a white working class voter happens to look like? I can understand this argument with someone like Cartwright, who has actually had electoral overperformance in federal races before, but Fetterman's only won races in a heavily Democratic city and a crowded primary for lieutenant governor where he was the only Western Pennsylvania candidate running.

If you view swing voters in Pennsylvania as all racists and homophobes who won't vote for Kenyatta because he's a scary gay black man, then just be up front and say that. Both Kenyatta and Fetterman seem absolutely fine on policy and I'd be happy to run with either, but y'all need to actually base your arguments against Kenyatta on something more tangible than an imaginary aura of electability that Fetterman has.

I didn't say that Fetterman is much more electable and I didn't say that this race isn't winnable for certain kind of Democrat. It is just your can't make main argument about Kenyatta's electability like "He is electable because Warnock win in Georgia". It is the same as "He isn't electable because Gillum lost in Florida"

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Warnock and Harrison had the Natl D's behind him

[tjstarling]

Gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of the Cartwright support comes from people who haven't heard the man speak. Great rep, but not exactly bursting with charisma. Fetterman and Kenyatta, particularly Fetterman, would be better options.

Surely - not Kenyatta. Black, gay, from Philadelphia..... Almost any Republican candidate will crush him, and you may get some much worse Senator, then Toomey,

Yeah these kinds of candidates never win, remember how the democrats blew a senate race back in Illinois in 2004. Obama  Black, Not African American, Muslim Sounding Name, From Chicago. Almost every republican will crush him.

Pennsylvania is substantislly more republican, then Illinois, and you know that. Biden, who  was born there (Scranton, not Philly...), is white, straight, and so on, won it by relatively small margin... So, your irony is useless here..

Wisconsin...2012. Madison lesbo didn't stand a chance.

Can a gay candidate win statewide in PA? Sure. Could a black candidate? Sure. Could a so-called progressive? Sure. Could a Philadelphian? Sure.

Could a gay, black, progressive from Philadelphia win in a likely mediocre to poor ‘22 environment? Color me skeptical.

Baldwin was elected in good Dem years. She’s not a good example as national environment overrides so-called “candidate quality.” And the Georgia comparison is a weak one. Dems were at rock bottom with rural culturally conservative voters in Georgia so they could appeal to their ascendant base in the Atlanta metro area and rely on Trump shooting Republicans in the foot leading to turnout differentials that were in the Dems favor. PA is different. Dems still need these white working class rural voters to some extent. They haven’t hit rock bottom with that group in PA - yet.

[smoltchanov]

Gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of the Cartwright support comes from people who haven't heard the man speak. Great rep, but not exactly bursting with charisma. Fetterman and Kenyatta, particularly Fetterman, would be better options.

Surely - not Kenyatta. Black, gay, from Philadelphia..... Almost any Republican candidate will crush him, and you may get some much worse Senator, then Toomey,

Um... what's the problem with being black, gay, and from Philadelphia? Plenty of minorities get elected and even outperform white candidates....

Well, nothing from my personal view - i have nothing against Blacks or gays. But i doubt that such candidate (i must add "very liberal" too) is the best by strictly "electability" criterion. In Russia, at least, there is a very strong dislike against us, Moscow citizens, in most other areas of country. And to win Democrats need not only "motivate base", and get out Philadephia's vote,  but to attract other people - Independents and their like. I sincerely doubt, that candidate of Kenyatta type is the best by criteria of, say, typical coal miner of SW Pennsylvania - mostly white ethnic people.. Combine that with very strong ideological orientation, which makes attraction of most Indies and Centrists more difficult - and you will get far from the best candidate. Just that...

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Should Ds net seats in Congress instead of lose seats like James Carville said D's will do, and the map doesn't have to follow the 306 seats like NC, NH, OH, FL we can win,we will get 2 DC Statehood seats that will elect a D Gov and at least 1 AA Senator, hopefully Mfume

[smoltchanov]

I know, I know, the comparisons are played out. But Georgia just elected a black pastor and a Jewish millennial and we're still doing the whole "Kenyatta is unelectable because he's gay and black" spiel. Give me a break.

One moment: Georgia isn't Pennsylvania

Exactly how i would answer. All states are different. Pennsylvania has much less Blacks and much more ethnics, then Georgia, for example.. And Pennsylvania outside of Philly and suburbs (plus Pittsburgh and suburbs) may compete with Alabama by it's conservatism..

[smoltchanov]

Gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of the Cartwright support comes from people who haven't heard the man speak. Great rep, but not exactly bursting with charisma. Fetterman and Kenyatta, particularly Fetterman, would be better options.

Surely - not Kenyatta. Black, gay, from Philadelphia..... Almost any Republican candidate will crush him, and you may get some much worse Senator, then Toomey,

Yeah these kinds of candidates never win, remember how the democrats blew a senate race back in Illinois in 2004. Obama  Black, Not African American, Muslim Sounding Name, From Chicago. Almost every republican will crush him.

Pennsylvania is substantislly more republican, then Illinois, and you know that. Biden, who  was born there (Scranton, not Philly...), is white, straight, and so on, won it by relatively small margin... So, your irony is useless here..

Wisconsin...2012. Madison lesbo didn't stand a chance.

Of course there are such examples. In San Francisco it's only a political plus to be gay, for example. But not every area of country is San Francisco...

[smoltchanov]

Gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of the Cartwright support comes from people who haven't heard the man speak. Great rep, but not exactly bursting with charisma. Fetterman and Kenyatta, particularly Fetterman, would be better options.

Surely - not Kenyatta. Black, gay, from Philadelphia..... Almost any Republican candidate will crush him, and you may get some much worse Senator, then Toomey,

Yeah these kinds of candidates never win, remember how the democrats blew a senate race back in Illinois in 2004. Obama  Black, Not African American, Muslim Sounding Name, From Chicago. Almost every republican will crush him.

Pennsylvania is substantislly more republican, then Illinois, and you know that. Biden, who  was born there (Scranton, not Philly...), is white, straight, and so on, won it by relatively small margin... So, your irony is useless here..

Wisconsin...2012. Madison lesbo didn't stand a chance.

Can a gay candidate win statewide in PA? Sure. Could a black candidate? Sure. Could a so-called progressive? Sure. Could a Philadelphian? Sure.

Could a gay, black, progressive from Philadelphia win in a likely mediocre to poor ‘22 environment? Color me skeptical.

You said it better then i could. Too many potentially problematic features. Simply not "typically best" candidate for statewide post. For congressional seat in Philly - sure, but statewide - color me skeptical too. IMHO - the best candidate would be someone like Biden: from urban, but preferably not capital area, liberal, but not radical, with strong labor connections, and so on... In short - not too different from ordinary Pennsylvania voter. And in case of Kenyatta there are simply too many differences...

[Holy Unifying Centrist]

Gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of the Cartwright support comes from people who haven't heard the man speak. Great rep, but not exactly bursting with charisma. Fetterman and Kenyatta, particularly Fetterman, would be better options.

Surely - not Kenyatta. Black, gay, from Philadelphia..... Almost any Republican candidate will crush him, and you may get some much worse Senator, then Toomey,

Um... what's the problem with being black, gay, and from Philadelphia? Plenty of minorities get elected and even outperform white candidates....

Well, nothing from my personal view - i have nothing against Blacks or gays. But i doubt that such candidate (i must add "very liberal" too) is the best by strictly "electability" criterion. In Russia, at least, there is a very strong dislike against us, Moscow citizens, in most other areas of country. And to win Democrats need not only "motivate base", and get out Philadephia's vote,  but to attract other people - Independents and their like. I sincerely doubt, that candidate of Kenyatta type is the best by criteria of, say, typical coal miner of SW Pennsylvania - mostly white ethnic people.. Combine that with very strong ideological orientation, which makes attraction of most Indies and Centrists more difficult - and you will get far from the best candidate. Just that...

Vote for the best person regardless of their race, sexuality, or whatever. You may have "nothing against Blacks or gays" but you're discriminating against them (whether you have good intentions or not) by saying they shouldn't be nominated for "electability".

Now if you think Kenyatta is too liberal or has a massive personality issue, that's another thing. But her being black, gay, or from Philadelphia is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

I know, I know, the comparisons are played out. But Georgia just elected a black pastor and a Jewish millennial and we're still doing the whole "Kenyatta is unelectable because he's gay and black" spiel. Give me a break.

One moment: Georgia isn't Pennsylvania

Wow really, I'd never considered that before.

Look, does anyone here have an actual reason why Fetterman is supposedly so much more electable than Kenyatta other than the fact he happens to fit our stereotype of what a white working class voter happens to look like? I can understand this argument with someone like Cartwright, who has actually had electoral overperformance in federal races before, but Fetterman's only won races in a heavily Democratic city and a crowded primary for lieutenant governor where he was the only Western Pennsylvania candidate running.

If you view swing voters in Pennsylvania as all racists and homophobes who won't vote for Kenyatta because he's a scary gay black man, then just be up front and say that. Both Kenyatta and Fetterman seem absolutely fine on policy and I'd be happy to run with either, but y'all need to actually base your arguments against Kenyatta on something more tangible than an imaginary aura of electability that Fetterman has.

The evidence isn't that thick and there's always a limit to the values of these prognostications, but I'll bite. For the record, the way in which Fetterman has run his campaign so far has caused his stock to drop a bit in my eyes and I'm watching Kenyatta's run with interest, but one could make an early case in favour of the former and against the latter.

A potential electoral upside for lefties lies in a willingness to criticise and oppose the party establishment/"populism" and perceived political independence in the eyes of voters cynical towards traditional politics. Sherrod Brown's long vigil against free trade, for instance, probably helped him a fair bit over the years. Kenyatta being on board with Biden very early would indicate he's less likely than Fetterman to go for this sort of campaign and thus could pick up any electoral downsides of being "tOo RaDicAl" while also not gaining from being an apparent political outsider.

[VAR]

This thread has officially gone off the rails, though I don’t think it was ever on the rails in the first place.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

This thread has officially gone off the rails, though I don’t think it was ever on the rails in the first place.

It'll get back on when, after months of Kenyatta vs Fetterman discourse, Lamb wins the primary comfortably with DSCC backing.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

This thread has officially gone off the rails, though I don’t think it was ever on the rails in the first place.

It'll get back on when, after months of Kenyatta vs Fetterman discourse, Lamb wins the primary comfortably with DSCC backing.

You really think so, um no

[smoltchanov]

Gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of the Cartwright support comes from people who haven't heard the man speak. Great rep, but not exactly bursting with charisma. Fetterman and Kenyatta, particularly Fetterman, would be better options.

Surely - not Kenyatta. Black, gay, from Philadelphia..... Almost any Republican candidate will crush him, and you may get some much worse Senator, then Toomey,

Um... what's the problem with being black, gay, and from Philadelphia? Plenty of minorities get elected and even outperform white candidates....

Well, nothing from my personal view - i have nothing against Blacks or gays. But i doubt that such candidate (i must add "very liberal" too) is the best by strictly "electability" criterion. In Russia, at least, there is a very strong dislike against us, Moscow citizens, in most other areas of country. And to win Democrats need not only "motivate base", and get out Philadephia's vote,  but to attract other people - Independents and their like. I sincerely doubt, that candidate of Kenyatta type is the best by criteria of, say, typical coal miner of SW Pennsylvania - mostly white ethnic people.. Combine that with very strong ideological orientation, which makes attraction of most Indies and Centrists more difficult - and you will get far from the best candidate. Just that...

Vote for the best person regardless of their race, sexuality, or whatever. You may have "nothing against Blacks or gays" but you're discriminating against them (whether you have good intentions or not) by saying they shouldn't be nominated for "electability".

Now if you think Kenyatta is too liberal or has a massive personality issue, that's another thing. But her being black, gay, or from Philadelphia is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

As i said above - you must consider all factors taken together. Yes, i think he is too liberal too. But for some people other factors (including those i mentioned previously) may be even more important. There are simply too many such factors in this case. And that decreases electability (yes, society is not ideal, and many people have prejudices). You know better, then i, that it's rather difficult for most Black candidates to get really BIG white vote in many areas of Deep South (especially - non-metropolitan), and how closely their electoral performance correlates with percentage of Blacks voting, for example. Despite all "assurances" of "nothing racist here..". Don't pretend, that many people in this case (and not only in the South) vote NOT based on race. Substantial number does exactly that, though they will never confess it. Other may simply dislike gays, and, Supreme Court decision notwithstanding, refuse to vote for such candidate. You can't control their behavoir at voting booth, can you? For some he/she may be "too urban slick". And so on. Every candidate has it's weak points, but in this case, IMHO, there are simply too much of them. Nothing more.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Fetterman once he wins the nomination will campaign for other D's due to his blue collar appeal and he can help Mark Kelly and Jeff Jackson and perhaps Tim Ryan in close contests, all 3 of them have blue collar roots

Our secret weapon aren't WC males, are WC females whom marched in DC in the sixties against apartheid. Just like D's should have nominated Joe Kennedy, his blue collar appeal could of helped Bullock in MT with his unlimited war chest. Fetterman will have the same effect


Fetterman 30, 9, 9, 4 Keyanetta, he will get the lowest he doesn't appeal to Pittsburgh

[lfromnj]

Costello by the way is some loser on twitter now who interacts with 25 follower dudes on how he is actually a strong candidate.

I said earlier if I had a choice of choosing whether NH or PA goes R I would choose PA just to piss off the Fetterman idiots on twitter but if Costello was the nominee I would rather NH go R.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Costello by the way is some loser on twitter now who interacts with 25 follower dudes on how he is actually a strong candidate.

Yea a guy that resided in a gerrymandered seat without much competition only to turn tail from his first difficult race doesn't speak much to candidate quality.

Gerlach was a far more compelling case considering how many times he survived 51-49 in a Kerry seat in back to back bad elections. Costello is just a joke by comparison.

[ctherainbow]

Now if you think Kenyatta is too liberal or has a massive personality issue, that's another thing. But her being black, gay, or from Philadelphia is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

I’m quickly becoming “that guy” in this thread, but in addition to Nina Ahmad not being Black, Malcolm Kenyatta is not a her.  He identifies as male, at least the last time I met him in February 2020.  (I realize that may have just been a typo, but thought I would clarify just in case  xD )

[KaiserDave]

Not a Lamb supporter but



Not exactly screaming Sinema 2.0...

He's not as moderate as people say it is, even if Cartwright/Fetterman are better.

[Kung Fu Kenny]

Not a Lamb supporter but



Not exactly screaming Sinema 2.0...

He's not as moderate as people say it is, even if Cartwright/Fetterman are better.

Yeah, but Sinema and Manchin do not encompass the full spectrum of moderate Democrats. We can do better than Lamb. I’ve compared him to Bob Casey with more ambition. He’s not a risk taker or someone who will go to bat for issues that need to be tackled. We shouldn’t need to settle for him just for some arbitrary electability argument.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Primary poll

Fetterman 29
Lamb 14
Keyanetta 9

Making it a 3 person race would be excellent news for Fetterman, it would stear the conversation away from the jogger story, whom is still the fav

Users jumped on the Keyenatta bandwagon too soon

[VAR]

Primary poll

Fetterman 29
Lamb 14
Keyanetta 9

Making it a 3 person race would be excellent news for Fetterman, it would stear the conversation away from the jogger story, whom is still the fav

Users jumped on the Keyenatta bandwagon too soon

Link, or did you make this all up?