Vice Presidential Debate Debating Thread

[fhtagn]

Thank you thumb21 for hosting this debate and getting in contact with everyone who is on a ticket.

The ticket that AZ and I provide is a promise to restore the Atlasian dream for everyone. The people do not want the government to provide all their basic needs, nor do they want a government that panders to meaningless social issues. They want a government that works towards a society that actually prospers, where there are opportunities for people to work hard and make something of themselves.

Under the current administration, we have lost our way. Rather than focus on issues that matter, the current administration has only created a larger divide, making no effort to bring us together to achieve common goals. The current President has gone out of his way to make false accusations about his political opponents, lied about his intentions, broken his campaign promises, and fostered an environment of shady backroom deals the only benefit himself and his party. The current Vice President has been complicit in this behavior, going out of his way to label an entire side as "extremists" with no proof to back that claim:


When our current President ran on a ticket just last year, even those on "his" side had strong words to say against him:

Griffin is a horrible choice. "Hesitant to re-emerge?" He last re-emerged to take back the helm of Labor and save the party. How'd that go?

He's extremely competent when he's committed to doing a job and finds satisfaction in the work. Probably the most competent the game has seen, and I've even started to like him. But I think it's a bit silly to pretend that he'll feel a personal stake in carrying out the job of VP.

Do I care? Nah. But from one has-been to another, it's just bleh.

The current administration is not someone who inspires, nor is it something Atlasia needs.

Still not convinced? Just look at the President's own words:

Barring a complete collapse or something equally deserving of the attention of a formidable and experienced leader, my time as President will conclude in early November (if elected this month).

we've seen the effects of guaranteed stability by there being no major crisis or scandal develop as a result of this administration

In his own words, there is no collapse, there is no crisis that deserves his attention. Atlasia does not need him. We deserve better than someone who is so willing to go back on his word, and do so openly and without apology.


What AZ and I provide is what anyone who has worked with us has known to be true: that we will work hard, that we will remain transparent  about our goals, that we will fight tooth and nail to keep our promises to the people, and that we will actually work for the people and for the game, not just ourselves and our party.

[fhtagn]

In the remaining right-wing outpost of the South, we have seen the right try to ram through a Confederate flag

I think the Vice President has forgotten who his own party members are...

For the civilian slot:

Codifying and Obtaining a New Flag that Exemplifies Defending our Exalted Reality and Achieving True Enlightenment Act

Section 1; Title
1. This bill may be cited as the Codifying and Obtaining a New Flag that Exemplifies Defending our Exalted Reality and Achieving True Enlightenment Act, or alternatively, the CONFEDERATE Act.

Section 2; Substance
1. The Regional Symbols Act of 2016 is amended by amending the Flag portion to read as follows:

2. The flag of the South (The Flag) shall consist of a red St. Andrew's cross on a white background, defaced in the center with The Great Seal. a dark blue cross on a rectangular red background, the cross bordered with a thin white line, with three evenly spaced white stars in each of the four quadrants of the cross, and one in the middle, as shown here.

3. The Flag acknowledges the heritage and identity of the South in a historically relevant, inclusive and respectful manner and shall serve as a symbol of unity and pride for all citizens of the South.

4. The Flag shall be flown at all regional government properties that are accessible to the public or where government business is regularly conducted.

5. Where multiple flags are flown beside each other, no flag in the South Region shall be flown at a higher level than The Flag, with the exception of the national Flag of Atlasia.

Asking for sponsorship of this:

Respecting the Result of the Southern Flag Referendum Act

The following is declared to be the new flag of the South:

[fhtagn]

Economic Policy:
> What is your view on the role of unions and "right to work" laws?
> What steps could be taken to create jobs?
> How can infrastructure be improved?

1. I recognize the contributions that unions have made to our society as a whole, and what they do for working class people today. However, it is a fact that when left unchecked and with too much power, some unions can and will abuse their power and engage in unethical practices, for example, corruption and intimidation. I've worked with both sides in the past on issues regarding unions, for example, freeing unions of being required to represent non-union members. As with many things, I firmly believe that union membership is a choice that only the worker can make, and cannot support forcing people to join a union. Many people have legitimate reasons for choosing not to join a union, and right to work laws protect these workers and allow them to keep their jobs. I have asked this numerous times to supporters of removing right to work laws, and not a single person has taken the time to actually answer the question: If union membership was so great, why do you want to force people to join them? It should be the union's job to convince the worker to join, not push for policy that forces people to become members.
2. With technological advances being implemented that are removing the need for assembly line workers and cashiers, and pushes for cleaner energy that is reducing the need for coal workers, we have a great opportunity to push for more job training programs and pushing our youth to attend trade schools, arguably moreso than we have had before. We are going into a new era where we don't have enough people working jobs necessary to make our everyday lives more convenient. What we need to do is start by focusing these programs in areas where job loss has hit the hardest, where you have higher rates of unemployment, and empower these people to learn new skills, and be the leaders going into the next generation.
3. Infrastructure can best be improved by giving more power and control over it to the regions. They are the best equipped to understand their needs, and the best to implement solutions to solving their existing problems.

Social Issues:
> What is your view of criminal justice reform?
> What should be done about climate change?

1. My view of criminal justice reform is that we of course need more of a focus on rehabilitating those who have committed non-violent crimes. Our system should work to ensure that not only do these people do their time, but during that time, ensure that they have the skills to successfully reintegrate into our society.
2. I think we need to look at more practical solutions when it comes to handling climate change. Rather than implement policies that most affect our working class people, we need to go after those that are actually causing the most harm. This includes holding the countries we associate with accountable for what they are doing to the environment.

Game/Reform Issues:
> What makes you qualified to be Vice President and what sort of role in the administration will you take?
> What will be your approach when dealing with congress?

1. I've been in this game since late 2016, and in that time I've served in numerous roles within regional legislatures, federal legislatures, and within the executive branch. I have a well-established record of not only doing my job, but doing my job well, in every position that I've held. While the Vice President holds a very vital role in Congress, I plan to also play a large role within the executive branch and working as a team with AZ.
2. My approach to dealing with Congress will be much like my approach from my Speakership as well as Deputy Speakership last year. I've always been very strict when it comes to the rules, regardless of the partisan makeup in the legislature. I've also always been one that places a high priority in keeping things moving. Unlike the current administration, I don't see intentionally slowing the flow of Congress to be something worth bragging about.

Individual Questions:
> To Fhtagn: You have loudly attacked the President, accusing him of being a tyrant. Can you elaborate on your allegations?

We know for a fact that this President has gone out of his way to bus in old Atlasians who have made very clear they have no interest in the game only to vote for him. He's even gone out of his way on AAD to posting a thread titled "Come Back and Make Me President Again!". As predicted, none of these people he's brought in have contributed outside of voting for him, most of them haven't even participated in regional or midterm federal elections. Soon after getting elected, he's gone out of his way to ensure all aspects of the game favor him and his party only, even going as far as supporting unnecessary rules changes that caused more problems than they solved for the sake of giving his party more power. He's even privately discussed doing the same in the Senate, and only chose not to push for this because his party had a 2/3rds majority. When pushed on this issue, he resorted to calling those who were against him "terrorists". Shortly after taking office, he falsely accused political opponents of threatening his life, a dramatic attempt to gain sympathy from players in the game. We are coming up on 4 months under the Griffin Administration, and despite his egotistical claims about his "glorious" rule, he's had far fewer accomplishments than he has let on, preferring to spend most of his time in private chats with his own party members than actually leading Atlasia as a whole. We are now in the second Congressional term since he took office, and he has failed to actually engage with members of Congress on the floor. He promised the people that this would be his last term, and in typical Griffin fashion, he failed to live up to his promise, failing to provide a legitimate reason to run again, going as far as to force his own June running mate out of the race less than 24 hours after announcing. To anyone that isn't a partisan hack, and anyone who has bothered to pay attention, this isn't an administration that actually seeks to represent all of Atlasia. This is an administration that purely exists to stroke the ego of a man whose time has already come and gone, who has outlived his usefulness to this game, and who desperately wants to feel relevant again.

[fhtagn]

The Confederate flag fiasco also shows this, and unlike what was said by fhtagn, this was pushed through by Federalist Governor YoungTexan. The process was rigged to force through a Confederate flag, as only flags with Confederate imagery were presented to the electorate, and then despite the referendum being declared non-binding YoungTexan loudly declared it was the 'will of the people' and had to be obeyed. fhtagn called this 'fake outrage', I disagree with her that citizens shouldn't be allowed to express their views on this issue and that people just have to accept the racist imagery of the Confederacy.

I'm sure that you've got so much on your plate as VP that you can't be bothered to read, but I highly suggest reading what I posted above. The only reason the Confederate flag came up was because your own party member, MB introduced it. The only reason there was a push to obey the results of the referendum was because another one of your own party members, Wulfric, introduced it and asked for it to be sponsored. You have not once publicly shamed them for doing so. It it fair for me to call it fake outrage when that is exactly what it is. If you were genuine in your frustrations with this, you would have called out your own party for being the reason it became a topic in the South to begin with. Until you do that, anything you say on this topic means nothing.  

Another example is when thr33 made several racist comments on Discord, and this was relevant information for voters as he was running for election to the Lincoln Assembly. Representative fhtagn however thought that the problem was that comments from Discord were posted on Atlas and repeatedly tried to deflect from this issue. As North Carolina Yankee pointed out then, the right never would have rushed to defend thr in 2016, but in 2019 they sure did.

I do not apologize for defending thr33. [EDITED] Allowing this sort of behavior leads to a very slippery slope that no one in their right mind would support. Would it be acceptable for me to find your RL information and post things you said for the purpose of dragging you? My guess would be no, however what you defended leads to exactly that.

[fhtagn]

Pericles you are simply blaming YT and Muaddib because it's convenient for you, not because it's factually correct to blame them. I say you aren't paying attention because that is exactly the case.

You claim that "intolerance" is wrong for Atlasia, but literally everything you have said about the Atlasian right is the very definition of intolerant. You've made ridiculous claims based on 3 instances (one of which you are intentionally blaming something that your own party is at fault for) and made them out to be much worse than they are for the purpose of manufacturing outrage. Much like when our current President uses these tactics, it's desperate and pathetic.

[fhtagn]

It's worth noting that the ONLY reason that respecting the referendum regarding the Southern flag even passed was because LABOR delegates Elcaspar and TSA voted for it. In fact, here's what Labor delegate TSA had to say about it:

I agree with this bill, it's time this Chamber and government respected the results of the referendum, I wholeheartedly support his bill.

It's also worth noting that the one Federalist that voted in favor of the bill, is a black man.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=325772.0

But once again, Pericles chooses to be dishonest about the facts.

[fhtagn]

I'd like to see Pericles actually address the question I asked in my responses, because having interacted with him since early 2018, he has still failed to provide an answer.

If union membership is so great, why do you support forcing people to join them? Shouldn't workers be given a choice?

[fhtagn]

It's rather absurd to pass the buck on to the minority party, and your argument yet again is unconvincing-it's pretty clear that YT and Muaddib are to blame. And, unlike some people, I believe everything I say, and don't appreciate having my honesty attacked. Anyway, you're trying to deflect and drag this debate down rabbit holes.

The big picture in this election is clear-Griff and I are providing strong and reasonable leadership for Atlasia while the Atlasian right has gone off the deep end and is too extreme to provide good leadership for the game at this time. Everything that has been said in this debate, including by Representative fhtagn, helps demonstrate this to voters.

I literally gave you the link to the thread. Do you not know how to read?
The bill honoring the referendum passed with 3 votes. Two of them are Labor delegates, one of them is a Federalist that is black. Muaddib didn't even vote on that bill, and only sponsored it when one of your Labor Party members requested someone to sponsor it. That is a fact. You can try to spin it how you want, but that doesn't change the truth.

If you don't like your "honesty" being attacked, you should try being honest for once.

[fhtagn]

I thank Muaddib for sponsoring this for me. The flag displayed here is the option that the people chose, and the regional government should respect that in the interest of maintaining a consistent and reliable democracy. We may not all like the result, but that is poor justification for overriding the will of the people. This legislation is necessary because the original referendum authorizing statute did not provide for automatic adoption of the selected flag.

[fhtagn]

establishment politicians who simply cater to the whims of their partisan base voters

That's literally what you do as a member of the Labor Party.

[fhtagn]

When it comes to dealing with climate change, rather than relying on money we take from working class people on an unnecessary tax, we need to do more to actually target those who are harming the environment the most. We also need to look into some more realistic clean energy sources, such as nuclear energy. The South has done a tremendous job at implementing this, and it's something that I am proud to have helped lead the way on two years ago as a member of the chamber, working with delegates across the aisle to get it done. As President, I also helped push towards holding countries we deal with accountable for what they are doing to the environment, and is something Atlasia can count on the AZ/fhtagn ticket to continue.

[fhtagn]

establishment politicians who simply cater to the whims of their partisan base voters

That's literally what you do as a member of the Labor Party.

If that was true, I wouldn't be running with Winfield.

If the President supports this, then so do I.

Opposed to this unnecessary limitation on Griffin's power

Implies distrust in Griffin and his cabinet, which only create the best regulations for the people.

I'm simply saying the act is unnecessary in this new era of long-term labor dominance, whose executives do not need this type of oversight.

Just to list a few.

[fhtagn]

establishment politicians who simply cater to the whims of their partisan base voters

That's literally what you do as a member of the Labor Party.

If that was true, I wouldn't be running with Winfield.

Also this:


(slight obvious edit made to censor out one word so Lumine doesn't kill this post)