Opinion of PEPs (Progressive Except Palestine)

[Kizzuwanda]

I am thinking of this because of the recent #JewsAgainstICE protest that allegedly seeks to unite Jews on both sides of the Zionist/anti-Zionist divide. I highly doubt that an anti-ICE protest would tolerate people who disagree with the progressive position on abortion, trans rights or Black Lives Matter. On these other issues the left demands total intersectionality. Why is being Progressive Except for Palestine tolerated? Why do human rights cease to be a non-negotiable/litmus test in that case?

[Goldwater]

Some of best people.

[PSOL]

I suppose you can say that this separates the opportunists from the real dye-in-the-wool folks.

[Former President tack50]

FFs

I would argue the Palestinian issue is not and should not be a left vs right one

[America Needs R'hllor]

They don't exist because unquestionably supporting Palestine, ignoring the security concerns of Israel and not questioning the human rights abuse by the Palestinian sects is a regresssive position.

Also nice antisemitism. "The Jews protesting ICE might claim that they're for the left, but first they have to prove that they don't have that Dual Loyalty before we accept them!"

[HillGoose]

don't Palestinian terrorists fire rockets at the Israelis on a daily basis?

[dead0man]

Well, it's clear why this guy has never seen antisemitism from the left before.

[Velasco]

I am thinking of this because of the recent #JewsAgainstICE protest that allegedly seeks to unite Jews on both sides of the Zionist/anti-Zionist divide. I highly doubt that an anti-ICE protest would tolerate people who disagree with the progressive position on abortion, trans rights or Black Lives Matter. On these other issues the left demands total intersectionality. Why is being Progressive Except for Palestine tolerated? Why do human rights cease to be a non-negotiable/litmus test in that case?

I think the people promoting this protest must be praised without reserve. Said this, the israeli-palestine conflict is a poisonous question. While I fully support the Palestinian cause, I think your approach is somewhat unfortunate. People must take into account the relationship between progressive Jews and the State of Israel is complicated, as there exist many emotional factors involved (related to Jewish identity and history). I'm not implying this is an excuse for open support to the regime of military occupation in the West Bank, or the Gaza blockade. Injustice and human right violations must be condemned everywhere, also without reserve. However, I think certain people in the left should be more understanding with the contradictions and inner conflicts of others. I tend to mistrust advocates of purity, on the other hand. I think anyone who condemns theconditions of the US detention centers will be, at the end, able to see  injustice in other places. Therefore, I don't support exclusions.  

FFs

I would argue the Palestinian issue is not and should not be a left vs right one

I would argue that no question related to human rights should be an issue of ideological divide.

They don't exist because unquestionably supporting Palestine, ignoring the security concerns of Israel and not questioning the human rights abuse by the Palestinian sects is a regressive position.

Also nice antisemitism. "The Jews protesting ICE might claim that they're for the left, but first they have to prove that they don't have that Dual Loyalty before we accept them!"

Strawman, as usual. Supporting the Palestinian cause does not imply to ignore your security concerns. Given that you are in a position of power with regards to the Palestinians, whose human rights are constantly abused by your armed and security forces, it'd be reasonable to expect certain restraint on your part. I don't know what are you implying with "human rights abuse by Palestinian sects", but I assure you that I don't support groups like Hamas (they are the mirror image of your ultranationalists) nor groups supporting regressive views in general. It's more simple than that: most of the people supporting the Palestinians see they are oppressed by the Israelis. They don't want that you die or disappear, they simply say the others have the right to exist.

In what regards your last sentence, I already said I don't support exclusion.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Given that you are in a position of power with regards to the Palestinians, whose human rights are constantly abused by your armed and security forces, it'd be reasonable to expect certain restraint on your part.

Yes, something something privilege power intersectionalism gobblety gook totally means you don't get to complain when terrorists blowup school buses or fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods ... when will these (((white males))) learn ...

[John Dule]

Given that you are in a position of power with regards to the Palestinians, whose human rights are constantly abused by your armed and security forces, it'd be reasonable to expect certain restraint on your part.

Yes, something something privilege power intersectionalism gobblety gook totally means you don't get to complain when terrorists blowup school buses or fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods ... when will these (((white males))) learn ...

Careful now. People who use children as human shields are entitled to their own opinions too.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Given that you are in a position of power with regards to the Palestinians, whose human rights are constantly abused by your armed and security forces, it'd be reasonable to expect certain restraint on your part.

Yes, something something privilege power intersectionalism gobblety gook totally means you don't get to complain when terrorists blowup school buses or fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods ... when will these (((white males))) learn ...

Just to put it into perspective- my city had one of the top 10 most deadly school massacres in history, and it wasn't even Hamas. It was the PLO. You don't have to support Israel, but making it into a progressive vs regressive dichotomy is as silly as always.

[Kizzuwanda]

Given that you are in a position of power with regards to the Palestinians, whose human rights are constantly abused by your armed and security forces, it'd be reasonable to expect certain restraint on your part.

Yes, something something privilege power intersectionalism gobblety gook totally means you don't get to complain when terrorists blowup school buses or fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods ... when will these (((white males))) learn ...

Just to put it into perspective- my city had one of the top 10 most deadly school massacres in history, and it wasn't even Hamas. It was the PLO. You don't have to support Israel, but making it into a progressive vs regressive dichotomy is as silly as always.

True there is a strong progressive case that settler colonialism is a good thing. Or apartheid. And slavery is debatable too. I mean John Brown was a bad bad terrorist who killed innocent white people, therefore it is regressive to support abolitionism without the condition of ensuring slave owners security.

[Intell]

FF, Palestine is a terrorist nation (so is Israel to argue which is worse is irrelevant- Isreal has a better society so I guess that?).

[Kingpoleon]

Supporting the government of Palestine is an untenable position. I’m very sympathetic to the oppression of the Palestinian people, but we must separate that from being sympathetic to Hamas and the PLO. Hamas and the PLO are violently anti-Israel, and it’s important to remember that they are literally terrorists.

If it’s not progressive to oppose Hamas, then I doubt very many Americans want to be progressive.

[DavidB.]

This is horseshoe theory in action, I guess: the alt-right accuses Jews of the very same thing (but will use a different frame for it). If Reaganfan had posted this, I know this probably wouldn't be allowed here.

I recognize that this inconsistent, hypocritical position exists, and I challenge it (from a pro-nationalist point of view) whenever I encounter it. However, I have a much bigger problem with people targeting Jews in the way OP does it, because the focus on Jews is very often rooted in antisemitism already.

[John Dule]

So funny to see so-called leftists in this thread supporting Israel, when it's basically the ideal MAGA endpoint nation.

[Kizzuwanda]

So funny to see so-called leftists in this thread supporting Israel, when it's basically the ideal MAGA endpoint nation.

The absolute state of "leftist" politics in the US.

[parochial boy]

I don't like to get involved  in discussions on "The Middle East Issue", but flipping hell I don't really know why people living in America or Europe feel like they have to support one side or another and descend into random whataboutery about who is worse as if it's OK to kill people just cos the other side do it.

[brucejoel99]

Somebody who's not comfortable holding Israel to account is implicitly supportive of Israeli oppression &, thus, an HP.

[Velasco]

Given that you are in a position of power with regards to the Palestinians, whose human rights are constantly abused by your armed and security forces, it'd be reasonable to expect certain restraint on your part.

Yes, something something privilege power intersectionalism gobblety gook totally means you don't get to complain when terrorists blowup school buses or fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods ... when will these (((white males))) learn ...

Why are you implying that condemning the Israeli actions means endorsing terrorism? That's the usual strawman and you should be careful in making such assumptions. Do you realize I can make the same accusation? Why don't you complain about the people killed by the Israelis? Discussing this way is totally unproductive

It is undisputable that Israel is in a power position and its armed forces abuse the rights of the Palestinian population on a regular basis. Do you support this state of affairs? Do you think all Palestinians are terrorists and must pay for it?

I support the end of abuses and occupation, fair and peaceful solutions. Do you have anything to oppose?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I don't like to get involved  in discussions on "The Middle East Issue", but flipping hell I don't really know why people living in America or Europe feel like they have to support one side or another and descend into random whataboutery about who is worse as if it's OK to kill people just cos the other side do it.

Yeah this. It kind of reminds me of the situation in Northern Ireland, where people will assign themselves one side of the conflict based on where their domestic politics lie, and then proceed to cheer their favoured side like its a game of football at a factional jamboree. It's all very crass, because there is no "winner" in these sort of conflicts - the only thing outsiders can do is act as a mediator and broadly support reconciliation and stability (it's worth noting that when my country had responsibility for the area, we, err, inflamed the conflict to begin with, and I don't see that changing if we tried to assume our old role back).

The other issue is that anti-semitism in the Pro Palestinian movement is unfortunately rife (I know this from personal experience). This isn't even a Muslim activism thing, from what I can tell - say what you like about them, they view the conflict as part of a broader conflict between the ummah and the rest of humanity, and view Palestine as equivalent to Kashmir, Xinjiang, Rohingya Province etc. It's more a tendency that overplays Israel's role as a country. No longer is Israel merely a rather dismally run and militaristic society that engages in morally dubious activities towards internal minorities and is making plans for illegally annexing another region to satisfy a hard right tendency of "settlers"; but a Machiavellian power centre that literally dictates the foreign policies of the US, the UK, France, Germany and other important powers through its dark arts. To me this is Anti-Semitic - Israel is not that important in the grand scheme of things, and if anything is far more subordinate to America than vice versa. An awful lot of people with no interest in other big foreign disputes suddenly are awfully interested when it comes to Israel, is all I'm saying.

[bagelman]

A minority of this group are ethno-nationalists who just otherwise are left wing, and they may have counterparts on the other side. But most are just normal left-wingers who are more pragmatic on this one particular issue. There are many left-wingers who might be more pragmatic on abortion for example.