Canada General Discussion (2019-)

[Middle-aged Europe]

Why are people constantly comparing BLM and Anti-Vaxx protests?

The majority of people approved of the BLM protests overall (but not the bad stuff) , found the protest's message moral, and hoped the movement continued. The majority of people do not approve of the anti-vaxx convoy, find the protest's message immoral, and hope the movement ends.

I will add that it's somewhat understandable that this is happening at the end of omicron, but 90% of these protestors felt the same way about ending all restrictions in 2021 and possibly even 2020, so that doesn't necessarily apply in all contests of the phrase "I agree with the protestors".

Sorry, you don’t get to decide what’s moral or not.  Also, the polls are rigged.  These protests have been largely peaceful. 

"The polls (alternatively the statistics/data) are rigged" is only a different way of saying "I only believe what I choose the believe, screw the facts". Which frankly renders any discussion moot, because the debate consists only of declarations of opinion instead of an exchange of actual arguments.

[StateBoiler]

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/ottawa-playbook

COURAGE AND CAUCUS — Both Covid-19 and the convoy have been force multipliers in Ottawa.

Conservative caucus meets today, a week after MPs showed some political aikido, using momentum from the Freedom Convoy to push out ERIN O’TOOLE. The palpable frustration inside and outside Parliament Hill for nearly two weeks has not only transformed the Tories, it has also catalyzed internal Liberal discord out for display.

Just look at Liberal JOËL LIGHTBOUND’s career progression into a maverick MP.

Lightbound stunned Ottawa with his decision to publicly break rank with his government’s Covid-19 positioning. Quite a birthday to remember for the Quebec MP.

— The cause: “Both the tone and the policies of my government changed drastically on the eve and during the last election campaign,” Lightbound told reporters Tuesday. "A decision was made to wedge, to divide and to stigmatize. I fear that this politicization of the pandemic risks undermining the public's trust in our public health institutions.”

He said he made his views known in caucus many times — and isn’t the only one who feels a similar way. “There are multiple colleagues that are uncomfortable with the type of politics that we have on this pandemic,” he said, without offering names.

— The consequence: Lightbound resigned as chair of the Quebec Liberal caucus. But despite his decision to go rogue, the Louis-Hébert MP hasn’t been thrown out of his party.

Liberal whip STEVEN MACKINNON said in a statement: “He has expressed clear confidence in the government, and remains a member of Liberal caucus.” It’s a precedent set under unprecedented circumstances.

Whether more Liberals follow Lightbound’s lead remains to be seen.

— The effect: Lightbound’s confession found him praise on the other side of the aisle. Conservative MP GARNETT GENUIS applauded his colleague’s courage, which he called contagious. “It's time for more MPs to speak out for unity, common sense, and hope,” Genius said.

Former N.B. Liberal Party leader KEVIN VICKERS saluted Lightbound for doing a fine job.

JANE PHILPOTT added her two cents, pulling notes from the day she and JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD were turfed from Liberal caucus. She tweeted: “Thoughts from a speech I wrote for caucus but was not able to deliver, April 2, 2019: It is healthy for democracy if MPs respectfully express different opinions. A party should be a safe place for MPs with dissenting views. MPs needn't agree with every decision of the government.”

Liberal MP NATE-ERSKINE SMITH disagreed with presumptions that Lightbound’s career has flatlined. “I don’t think his political career is over,” he tweeted. “We don’t need to agree on all issues, and some of what he’s articulated (the need to re-evaluate measures as we go on) has been reiterated by Dr. Tam.”

Crown-Indigenous Relations Minister MARC MILLER told reporters he has some problems with Lightbound’s decision to make his grievances public, suggesting political debate is muddying the primary objective, which is saving lives.

“It’s something we’ve been relentless in doing over the last two years and if Canadians think that’s politicizing the debate, I think they need to screw their heads on better," Miller said.

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/the-joel-lightbound-crisis-in-the-liberal-party/

On the substance of the argument, I think [Liberal MP Joel Lightbound] is right that the [Trudeau] government would have a hard time defending each of its policy decisions in turn, which is one reason the government never comes anywhere close to bothering to try. (Another reason is that this government is simply incompetent at making any coherent argument. I mean, it’s breathtaking. This comes from the top.) There’s a line in Lightbound’s prepared remarks about wishing for evidence instead of talking points. That’s the sort of thing music collectors call a “deep cut.”

...But if you can’t defend your policy, it doesn’t much help if you ball up your fists and demand that everyone be a team player. If you can defend your policy, great: defend it. Lightbound’s broader argument—that this government has been leaning way too hard on “get with the program” as an argument for way too long—is not only reasonable, it’s obvious to anyone who can see. Including many Liberals of my acquaintance.

The truckers vs the lockdown is a perfect illustration of a central characteristic of the Trudeau government and, I might as well say it, of Justin Trudeau: the strong belief that there will be a perfect time to make a decision later, after the crisis is over. The early-2020 “build back better” rhetoric amounted to a hope that, after the icky virus went away, Canada could get back to building light rail, which sometimes seems to be the only thing that excites this gang. The nasty political sideswipe from the collapse of Kabul in the first week of the 2021 election campaign was similar: How dare there be a mess when he was trying to build the future? Everyone in Ottawa can list a dozen decisions that are way overdue, and the reason they’ve heard for the delay is some variation on, “Not yet. The time’s not right yet.”

I revert to my signature.

[CumbrianLefty]

No, most polling is not "rigged" (and its usually pretty obvious when it actually *is*)

[StateBoiler]

There is a simple solution. Justin just keeps to stop whimpering and give the local police forces the help they need.

So in other words, become a leader worth a sh*t, grow a pair of balls, and stand up for something controversial?

What in his 6 years of governing tells you he's capable of that?

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

The Lightbound thing is quite something, it's rare to hear a vocal, public repudiation of their own party from Canadian MPs, especially those in government.

On one hand, I think Joël Lightbound knew that he risked throwing away his status as a Liberal MP. He's already resigned as QC caucus chair, how voluntary that decision was is anyone's guess. Maybe he's looking to jump ship to the Tories, which could work out for a Quebec City MP. That said, his statement was far more O'Toole than Bergen or Poilievre, so I doubt he'd feel welcome in the CPC the way it's headed. But I thought his arguments were pretty sensible. It's possible, if not likely, that there are other Liberal MPs who feel a similar way, and punishing Lightbound too harshly could create serious tensions among Liberal MPs, some of whom are reported to already be a little frustrated at the leader for calling the 2021 election.

[DC Al Fine]

A 2nd Liberal MP, Yves Robilliard has broken ranks to criticize Trudeau's handling of COVID, calling his approach "politicized" and " divisive" and saying that it "stigmatizes and divides people"

[DC Al Fine]

Must say I'm very pleased with this sudden outbreak of backbenchers on both sides of the aisle growing a spine and criticizing their leader.

[2952-0-0]

Must say I'm very pleased with this sudden outbreak of backbenchers on both sides of the aisle growing a spine and criticizing their leader.

Come to think of it, it's become disturbing how the expectation that party members cannot criticize their leader has become normalized in Canadian politics. You only otherwise see this in the most totalitarian of dictatorships.

[DabbingSanta]

Must say I'm very pleased with this sudden outbreak of backbenchers on both sides of the aisle growing a spine and criticizing their leader.

Come to think of it, it's become disturbing how the expectation that party members cannot criticize their leader has become normalized in Canadian politics. You only otherwise see this in the most totalitarian of dictatorships.

Canada has never been a true "free" country, nor is it a true representative democracy. The sooner you realize this the more everything starts to make sense.  With our population becoming more Americanized, I think there is an expectation for something that never really existed, like we are seeing right now with the truck convoy.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Must say I'm very pleased with this sudden outbreak of backbenchers on both sides of the aisle growing a spine and criticizing their leader.

Come to think of it, it's become disturbing how the expectation that party members cannot criticize their leader has become normalized in Canadian politics. You only otherwise see this in the most totalitarian of dictatorships.

Canada has never been a true "free" country, nor is it a true representative democracy. The sooner you realize this the more everything starts to make sense.  With our population becoming more Americanized, I think there is an expectation for something that never really existed, like we are seeing right now with the truck convoy.

I'm not sure this is a prospect that I or most Canadians feel great about. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an America-basher, and there are some positives we can embrace. But on a whole, whether you're on the left or right, it's pretty hard right now to feel optimistic about the direction of America, let alone try to embrace it.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Must say I'm very pleased with this sudden outbreak of backbenchers on both sides of the aisle growing a spine and criticizing their leader.

Unusual to see, but not very surprising on the Liberal side. The government's been in power for six years, backbenchers tend to lose faith in the leadership after some time in power. As for the Tories, not very unusual and not at all surprising to see criticism coming from the Quebec caucus, Greg McLean (Calgary Centre, the only Tory representing a major city's downtown riding), and Michael Chong, the spiritual leader of the progressive wing.

[Benjamin Frank]

I don't support the broader 'truckers', but good on Joel Lightbound.

I find it more than a little odd that many of the same people who are praising Lightbound also criticized Prime Minister Trudeau for exercising his free speech rights in telling it like it is in regards to the Ottawa occupiers/terrorists, and said that if Trudeau had just self censored that these terrorists' feelings wouldn't have been hurt.

Well, no need to quote me, since I am not one of those people, and haven't been politicising this.

I didn't say you were. 

[Benjamin Frank]

No, whole cities are not being burned down in protest.  That is an outright lie.

Well, right wingers bought the myth of these new rules, since the vast majority of BLM protests didn't involve riots or otherwise illegal acts.

Beyond that, all 100% of these terrorists are blocking the streets of downtown Ottawa, impeding traffic and forcing businesses to close.  This, in itself, is subject to an injunction.

I find it more than a little odd that many of the same people who are praising Lightbound also criticized Prime Minister Trudeau for exercising his free speech rights in telling it like it is in regards to the Ottawa terrorists

I bet you also think that waterboarding is no big deal. 

[Benjamin Frank]

Why are people constantly comparing BLM and Anti-Vaxx protests?

The majority of people approved of the BLM protests overall (but not the bad stuff) , found the protest's message moral, and hoped the movement continued. The majority of people do not approve of the anti-vaxx convoy, find the protest's message immoral, and hope the movement ends.

I will add that it's somewhat understandable that this is happening at the end of omicron, but 90% of these protestors felt the same way about ending all restrictions in 2021 and possibly even 2020, so that doesn't necessarily apply in all contests of the phrase "I agree with the protestors".

Sorry, you don’t get to decide what’s moral or not.  Also, the polls are rigged.  These protests have been largely peaceful.  

A good chunk of them have been terrorizing the city and the residents want them gone. Including a lot of residents that aren't particularly political. The mall had to shut down because they can't justify becoming an omicron hot spot and facing a class action lawsuit from all the employees that work there.

I didn’t hear you saying this when BLM burned down entire cities last year.  Why do you suddenly care about lives and property?  Cause it fits your political agenda?  Hilarious.

As linked to in the other thread on this on the U.S political discussions, the Commission from the major Police Chief's Association itself said that most of the destruction were caused by small groups of vandals/anarchists who infiltrated BLM protests.

I guess it's easy to grandstand when you're an ignoramus.

[DabbingSanta]

As linked to in the other thread on this on the U.S political discussions, the Commission from the major Police Chief's Association itself said that most of the destruction were caused by small groups of vandals/anarchists who infiltrated BLM protests.

I guess it's easy to grandstand when you're an ignoramus.

You could say the same thing about the Ottawa protesters.  One idiot who was not connected to the movement was flying a Nazi flag.  One idiot draped a Canadian flag over the Terry Fox monument.  One idiot vandalized the war memorial.  Much like you argue the actions of some BLM supporters are not representative of the BLM movement, I can also argue that the actions by these few foolish individuals do not represent the freedom convoy movement.  It's all fair game in politics.

[Benjamin Frank]

As linked to in the other thread on this on the U.S political discussions, the Commission from the major Police Chief's Association itself said that most of the destruction were caused by small groups of vandals/anarchists who infiltrated BLM protests.

I guess it's easy to grandstand when you're an ignoramus.

You could say the same thing about the Ottawa protesters.  One idiot who was not connected to the movement was flying a Nazi flag.  One idiot draped a Canadian flag over the Terry Fox monument.  One idiot vandalized the war memorial.  Much like you argue the actions of some BLM supporters are not representative of the BLM movement, I can also argue that the actions by these few foolish individuals do not represent the freedom convoy movement.

1.The occupiers/terrorists have made this point repeatedly.

2.That leaves out that the honking, which seems to have stopped, is a form of torture and that every one of these occupiers/terrorists is impeding movement which is a criminal act subject to an injunction.

Unlike the BLM protests, everything these occupiers/terrorists are doing is illegal.

So, no, your analogy fails and only an ignoramus could make such a stupid analogy in the first place.

[T'Chenka]

Must say I'm very pleased with this sudden outbreak of backbenchers on both sides of the aisle growing a spine and criticizing their leader.

Come to think of it, it's become disturbing how the expectation that party members cannot criticize their leader has become normalized in Canadian politics. You only otherwise see this in the most totalitarian of dictatorships.

Canada has never been a true "free" country, nor is it a true representative democracy. The sooner you realize this the more everything starts to make sense.  With our population becoming more Americanized, I think there is an expectation for something that never really existed, like we are seeing right now with the truck convoy.

I mean... we aren't a libertarian country like the United States, and I thank god for that every single day. We're a very free country as compared to other western nations. Very few countries have true representative democracy, so that's a high bar you're setting there. If this country isn't libertarian enough for your sensibilities, I hope you are afforded the chance to move to the USA.

[T'Chenka]

Why are people constantly comparing BLM and Anti-Vaxx protests?

The majority of people approved of the BLM protests overall (but not the bad stuff) , found the protest's message moral, and hoped the movement continued. The majority of people do not approve of the anti-vaxx convoy, find the protest's message immoral, and hope the movement ends.

I will add that it's somewhat understandable that this is happening at the end of omicron, but 90% of these protestors felt the same way about ending all restrictions in 2021 and possibly even 2020, so that doesn't necessarily apply in all contests of the phrase "I agree with the protestors".

Sorry, you don’t get to decide what’s moral or not.  Also, the polls are rigged.  These protests have been largely peaceful. 

A good chunk of them have been terrorizing the city and the residents want them gone. Including a lot of residents that aren't particularly political. The mall had to shut down because they can't justify becoming an omicron hot spot and facing a class action lawsuit from all the employees that work there.

I didn’t hear you saying this when BLM burned down entire cities last year.  Why do you suddenly care about lives and property?  Cause it fits your political agenda?  Hilarious.

Why do all the blue avatars now suddenly assume I didn't criticize the BLM rioting and looting in 2020? I was one of the users on here that was condemning it. Don't take my word on it, it's all there in my post history.

[DC Al Fine]

No, whole cities are not being burned down in protest.  That is an outright lie.

Well, right wingers bought the myth of these new rules, since the vast majority of BLM protests didn't involve riots or otherwise illegal acts.

Beyond that, all 100% of these terrorists are blocking the streets of downtown Ottawa, impeding traffic and forcing businesses to close.  This, in itself, is subject to an injunction.

I find it more than a little odd that many of the same people who are praising Lightbound also criticized Prime Minister Trudeau for exercising his free speech rights in telling it like it is in regards to the Ottawa terrorists

Remarkably hypocriticial

[PSOL]

Normally I would be sympathetic to protesting against vaccine mandates, but not one’s led by fascists and wannabe US proxies.

I support the government of Canada critically against these petty people

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Candice Bergen is calling on the protestors to go home. It seems like the convoy's political capital has run out, and frankly, they've done it to themselves, as things have gone on long enough and gotten noticeably more unhinged. The CPC is right in trying to disown this, in case things get violent, but it would have been a lot smarter to take a neutral stance in the first place.

What's crazy is, nobody's come out of this looking good. The convoy is losing support by the day. Both Trudeau and Ford are being criticized for their response - Trudeau in particular is also getting caucus dissent (I think there's more than Lightbound and Rouillard, a governing party's MP doesn't call the government's policy divisive and unfair without getting kicked out - unless there are others backing them). The Tories have hitched their wagons to an unpopular movement, and are trying to distance themselves this late in the game.

[2952-0-0]

Normally I would be sympathetic to protesting against vaccine mandates, but not one’s led by fascists and wannabe US proxies.

I support the government of Canada critically against these petty people

What makes this much harder is the involvement of ex-military and ex-intelligence types in the organizational structure.

Candice Bergen is calling on the protestors to go home. It seems like the convoy's political capital has run out, and frankly, they've done it to themselves, as things have gone on long enough and gotten noticeably more unhinged. The CPC is right in trying to disown this, in case things get violent, but it would have been a lot smarter to take a neutral stance in the first place.

The OPP and RCMP have now kettled the blockade in Windsor by the Ambassador Bridge, the City of Windsor is in court to obtain an injunction ordering the blockade to disperse, and even the Governor of Michigan is offering to send equipment to assist in the cleanup operation. It's now inevitable that violence will break out, and that there will be mass arrests and serious criminal prosecutions. The prisoners will become a cause celebre among the far-right in Canada and around the world ("political persecutions"), and the people who started following Pierre Poilievre on Twitter will feel the most betrayed when he ignores them. They will then rage against the CPC as "worse than Turdeau lol", while the far-right types like Randy Hillier, Maxime Bernier, and Derek Sloan will make huge gains.

Meanwhile, the remains of the CPC will still emerge damaged, since their distancing from the convoy is too little, too late.

What's crazy is, nobody's come out of this looking good. The convoy is losing support by the day. Both Trudeau and Ford are being criticized for their response - Trudeau in particular is also getting caucus dissent (I think there's more than Lightbound and Rouillard, a governing party's MP doesn't call the government's policy divisive and unfair without getting kicked out - unless there are others backing them). The Tories have hitched their wagons to an unpopular movement, and are trying to distance themselves this late in the game.

The PPC will benefit the most. The chatter among the convoy supporters on social media is that the Conservative MPs who supported them over the past weeks were just slimy opportunists who are there to use them, while Randy Hillier and Maxime Bernier were consistent about their cause.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

The PPC will benefit the most. The chatter among the convoy supporters on social media is that the Conservative MPs who supported them over the past weeks were just slimy opportunists who are there to use them, while Randy Hillier and Maxime Bernier were consistent about their cause.

If your analysis is correct, then Poilievre's strategy of courting PPC voters might not work after all.

I mean, he'll probably be the next leader regardless of what happens. But if he can't unite the right, he's probably not the right Conservative to poach from the left.

[MaxQue]

Ontario government got an court order freezing the GiveSendGo funds.

[2952-0-0]

Ontario government got an court order freezing the GiveSendGo funds.

https://twitter.com/GiveSendGo/status/1491940399505682434

GiveSendGo has responded defiantly, claiming that Canadian courts have no jurisdiction. Which is BS, because 1) the Ontario court order applies to Canadian bank accounts that receive funds from the platform, and 2) the US or Delaware court will issue an injunction freezing the funds in question.

Between this, and the impending police operation at the Ambassador Bridge, a sense of panic and despair will set in among the convoy organizers. Their funds will have been cut off, and their strongest leverage will have been eliminated. Most of the hangers-on protesters will take the hint and go home, but the radicalized core will find they have nothing to lose. And that's when things will get very dangerous.