Elizabeth Warren 2020 campaign megathread

[GP270watch]

 Warren's student debt consolidation/forgiveness plan is really exciting.

[Heebie Jeebie]

Warren's student debt consolidation/forgiveness plan is really exciting.

Agreed.  I'm not entirely sold on the "free college" part, but the debt forgiveness and the fund for HCBUs are both extremely good ideas.

[Rookie Yinzer]

Ok Senator Warren! You’ve reignited my interest. 👀

[GP270watch]

It's not "free stuff". It's the government making an investment in its people instead of giving the wealthiest more and more money.

[izixs]

Allowing debtors to discharge their debt through bankruptcy, work it off through public service, or restructure it to reflect their actual earning power makes sense in a way that just saying "screw it all" does not.

This assumes that any of these would actually work on the mass scale necessary to content with both the size of the individually held debt and how wide spread it is. Bankruptcy has disruptive effects throughout ones life and so people try to avoid it at all costs, public service options are effectively an incentive for the government to put more debt onto people so they get free workers for reduced or no pay (huzzah slavery!), and restructuring amounts to spreading out the debt over a longer period of time for those most suffering, which will generally mean paying a higher cost in the long run in order to make the bills today due to interest. Each of these alternatives screws over the loan holders in some fashion. And given a college education is kind of an entry level requirement in a growing portion of our economy, thus making it not an option but essential for a large segment of the work force, to provide extra punishment for those without economic means to even get a job is a tad ridiculous. And is in effect a back door promotion of one class over another under a lie about 'fairness'.

The net result is under your proposed options is a quickly growing lower class without a college education because they can't afford it and are unwilling to be saddled with debt but facing the problem of competing for a shrinking job market of unskilled labor, a static upper class reliant on inherited wealth to maintain their educational standards to maintain their power, and a shrinking middle class where debt is pushing even the lucky ones down the ladder despite doing everything right to get ahead. So... kind of what we got going already right now. So in a system sense it is an egregiously unfair system built on the excuses of individual parts being 'fair', especially to those wishing to work their way up. Trying to, you know, do that capitalism thing of working hard to get ahead that's supposed to make capitalism the bee's knees and all that.

So yeah, I'll happily support a candidate who's willing to break this cycle with bold policy ideas. We can quibble about the specifics sure, but abandoning the idea of a change of how the core of the system works is basically an endorsement of a system that's horrifically broken.

[izixs]

Public sector loans amount to slavery? That’s a novel description. It’s also utterly ludicrous.

You said public service. Which implies that the government wants you to do this job, and because of your debt, you are now required to do that job. And given the size of the debts continuing to grow year to year under the current paradigm of college costs, how long that forced employment will be will expand for those in such a situation. Ergo, de facto slavery with no hope of escape because you are only doing this job with little recourse to escape it once you fall into that sort of system.

“Screw over” presumably meaning “expects them to tolerate literally any inconvenience or sacrifice" on account of having taken out student loans.

I have a relative who threw a $50,000 wedding a few months ago, followed by a honeymoon in Austrian ski country. She’s giddy about Warren’s proposal. The thought that she could have achieved the same effect on her finances quite easily hasn’t occurred to her.

Hey, here's what might come as a surprise but... most folks can't afford $50k weddings. Maybe get out of your upper class bubble once in a while perhaps? Then you might actually meet people who dream of big weddings but are no where near capable of getting it because, among other things, they got $100k+ of student loan debt that they can barely make payments on. Aka, most people are not your relative.

This is not at all true. The chief result of decades spent encouraging college attendance has been not to improve productivity, not to improve employment, nor even to raise the quality of civic life, but instead to increase the expense of the typical college education while at the same time lowering the quality of the median graduate.

For profit colleges are a thing (and also a scam), but most folks tend to avoid those for that reason. The rest of the university landscape is a varied collection of schools with different purposes and missions and nature of their core funding. And you are just kind of claiming that all of these institutions are for profit monsters bent on becoming degree mills? That doesn't make a lot of sense. And ignores things like state schools getting their funding habitually slashed by austerity fetishists, private schools becoming dens of internal corruption and promotion of initiatives to 'boost enrollment' that only end up looking good on paper but not doing anyone any good other than to add something to some administrator's resume, federal funding for research lagging behind the demand for such at universities that could massively offset even basic school costs, or any other of the systematic issues that are about in higher education that no one wants to address directly. Which we should address these things. But... to claim it is simply, and only, a profit motive to raise costs and to lessen quality to save money is a little short sighted to say the least.

How on earth does the insistence that debtors assume any responsibility at all amount to punishment? It’s far cheaper to target assistance to those cases where it is most necessary.

As I guess I didn't make my point clear: If there is going to be a minimum education to play in our society then these debtors should not actually be debtors in the first place. This isn't anything to do with their responsibilities, it is the failing of our society to take on the responsibility to insure that everyone has the ability to participate given the demands required. Don't like the idea of free college? Then push for a society where it isn't necessary (which, is probably not going to happen, fyi) or abandon any pretense that this has anything to do with fairness and responsibility. We as a society have failed millions of people by forcing them to go massively in debt, maybe its time we fixed that mistake.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I am still a big Warren supporter but free college and unconditioned debt jubilee are easily my least favorite proposals so far. These sound like rather lazy ideas. Even if you want to argue that this is about shifting the Overton Window, just the idea of having unconditioned debt forgiveness seems like a good way to turn away bond purchasers, etc. from whom the government gets to underwrite these (and all other) loans.

[Beet]

I am still a big Warren supporter but free college and unconditioned debt jubilee are easily my least favorite proposals so far. These sound like rather lazy ideas. Even if you want to argue that this is about shifting the Overton Window, just the idea of having unconditioned debt forgiveness seems like a good way to turn away bond purchasers, etc. from whom the government gets to underwrite these (and all other) loans.

The debt relief is treated as spending, so bondholders wouldn't be affected. The general idea of structural reductions in debt is honestly something the US (and other) world economies desperately need.

[Xing]

I guess my biggest wonder would be the timeline for this. Would debt cancellation and free college happen simultaneously, or would the goal be to enact one and phase the other in? While the idea of debt cancellation is tempting, it does benefit those who have more recently graduated more much than those who graduated over a decade ago. That might be where the "reparations" idea came from, though this would probably be about as politically popular as actual reparations are. I'm really glad that Warren is talking about this, and the solution should not be to throw her ideas out the window, but I hope that she can develop a clearer picture of this over the next several months.

[Canis]

Warren is killing this town hall

[Warren 4 Secretary of Everything]

Warren is killing this town hall

She’s really making me consider supporting her. She’s coming across as knowledgeable, personable, and just plain real. When she talks, I believe her.

I don’t know where the idea that she’s “shrill” or “uncharismatic” comes from. She’s probably the most likeable of all the female candidates.

[Scrumtrulescent]

She certainly upstaged Klobuchar tonight

[Da2017]

Watched part of her town hall. I think she has moved up on my choices. I think she really does care average Joe. I still have concerns about her electability.

[GoTfan]

Warren is killing this town hall

She’s really making me consider supporting her. She’s coming across as knowledgeable, personable, and just plain real. When she talks, I believe her.

I don’t know where the idea that she’s “shrill” or “uncharismatic” comes from. She’s probably the most likeable of all the female candidates.

I never really got that argument either. She's the oldest woman in the race, so she might come across to some as an overly-strict grandma or something.

[Bush did 311]

I like Warren's attempts to out-left Sanders from time to time. I still see her as a 'backup' in the event that Sanders gets assassinated or runs into health issues, though. I'm mainly concerned about her ability to win in a national election.

One thing that's struck my attention is her consistency in polls. She's been in the 3rd-5th position, carrying 8-10% in most polls from the past month. While she's a distant 3rd behind Sanders and Biden, it seems she's recovered somewhat from the native american stuff, and has a solid base of her own.

[S019]

She called Martha Coakley a "good candidate" and referred to Scott Brown as a "popular Republican", rather than using his name.

[Canis]

She called Martha Coakley a "good candidate" and referred to Scott Brown as a "popular Republican", rather than using his name.

So what most Americans don't know or care who brown and coakley are

[Progressive Pessimist]

Watched part of her town hall. I think she has moved up on my choices. I think she really does care average Joe. I still have concerns about her electability.

I'm in this boat too. I have always liked her, especially more than Sanders. She is the most policy focused candidate, and would probably make a great President. The problem though, is that the GOP have already been laser focused on dragging her reputation through the mud since she got elected which hampers her electability. And my criteria for supporting a candidate this time around is whether they can beat Trump or not. It sucks how that has become the most important aspect of electing a politician these days. But one cannot govern without winning, unfortunately, and I am skeptical as to whether Warren is in a position to do that.

[izixs]

Watched part of her town hall. I think she has moved up on my choices. I think she really does care average Joe. I still have concerns about her electability.

I'm in this boat too. I have always liked her, especially more than Sanders. She is the most policy focused candidate, and would probably make a great President. The problem though, is that the GOP have already been laser focused on dragging her reputation through the mud since she got elected which hampers her electability. And my criteria for supporting a candidate this time around is whether they can beat Trump or not. It sucks how that has become the most important aspect of electing a politician these days. But one cannot govern without winning, unfortunately, and I am skeptical as to whether Warren is in a position to do that.

I've thought about the concept of electability for years. Even did a youtube video about it recently where part of my conclusion boils down to this:

Declaring a candidate electable is not only deceptive (towards yourself or others which I explain in the bulk of the essay), but is in effect telling people you don't know that you already know who they will vote for, and thus they are expected to do so. Which... might piss people off to a degree. Which then bounces back when they turn their nose up at this insistence with us voting in the primary being angry at them for not just accepting the candidate we picked that is tailored to them. It is in the long run much less infuriating for those we wish to get on board with our nominee if we're supporting our candidate not because we see them as electable, but because they'd actually make a good president. That enthusiasm demonstrates an honesty about our selection for one, and folks will take that over phony insistences of electability any day. But it also might give them a reason, once we tell them why we support our candidate, to vote for them as well.

Yeah, so don't feel super obligated to worry about electability. Its a loose-loose game to make it your prime criteria.

So if you like Warren, or any other candidate, enthusiastically before any thought of electability factors in, then try to use that enthusiasm to make them more electable. And drop the worry aside.

[GP270watch]

 I'm not worried about her against Trump heads up, she'd destroy him on any stage in any debate and his silly name calling won't save him. I'm worried about her vs the corporate media, the big banks, Wall Street, and now the tech companies. If there is anybody they don't want to be President it's Elizabeth Warren and that's exactly why she needs to be President.

[Dr Oz Lost Party!]

What pisses me off is that Warren is proposing some of the most robust and transformative policies in the field, and yet she's polling only at 6%, while Buttigieg is surging into contention with Biden and Bernie solely off of the fact he's young, gay, and handsome. Jfc, what are his ideas?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Warren is killing this town hall

She’s really making me consider supporting her. She’s coming across as knowledgeable, personable, and just plain real. When she talks, I believe her.

I don’t know where the idea that she’s “shrill” or “uncharismatic” comes from. She’s probably the most likeable of all the female candidates.

I never really got that argument either. She's the oldest woman in the race, so she might come across to some as an overly-strict grandma or something.

As near as I can figure out, it comes from, "I don't want to vote for a woman, but don't want to say that out loud. So I'll tell everyone 'I don't like her personality'. " Then they go off and support a confessed serial abuser.

[Koharu]

Despite my fears that she could lose against Trump because of misogyny, she has become my preferred candidate. I chipped in to her campaign after the town hall.

[RussFeingoldWasRobbed]

Now I'm set on Warren. She is the most genuine person other then Bernie and I think would be more effective as President. Castro and Gillibrand are ok but most of The others are disingenuous or incompetent

[Rookie Yinzer]

Came in here to say that Warren might get my vote. I watched her on She the People and other than Harris she seemed the most comfortable, relaxed, and knowledgeable on issues that affect women especially black women which I feel is really important. I’m going to donate and I’m also attending a house party for her in Atlanta next week.