Is ILLEGAL Immigration a PROBLEM? Or is ILLEGAL Immigration OK With You?

[catographer]

it ain't good cuz they're breaking the law and we can't properly take care of people if they're undocumented/in the shadows. also, it's unfair to legal immigrants. however, it's not much of a problem in the grand scheme of things, and most ppl here illegally are just chillin and living their lives like everyone else. also morally speaking, the reasons for legal and illegal immigrants to come here are the same: better opportunity and safety.

[Bojack Horseman]

It serves a major purpose in our economy in that they do jobs that nobody else wants, even for a decent wage. Illegal immigrant labor keeps grocery prices down, as farmers can’t find anyone else willing to pick their fields.

[Maxwell]

Illegal Immigration may be a problem, though I'm becoming less convinced of that fact by the day, but the medicine that the political right in this country has been proposing is far more corrosive than the problem ever was. Border Security has been strengthened so much fold in the last few decades to the effect that now there are literal child concentration camps and a bureacracy that is now abducting people with green cards and asylum WITH NO KIND OF SUPERVISION OR OVERSIGHT WHATSOEVER.

If you view illegal immigration as a problem, wouldn't you view it through the lens of incentives and then go after those incentives? JOBS. People won't come here if you have to verify yourself as a united states citizen to even work anywhere. But no surprise, the GOP wouldn't be caught dead penalizing mega farms, fast food chains, and all the other people that fill the party's campaign coffers, so instead they go with the solution that allows them to rile up people's fears and resentment of the other.

The TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION argument is basically the only thing our government has been doing for the last twenty-thirty years and, as you can see, not only does it not work but it is actively harmful for a variety of reasons. Time to try something else.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Illegal Immigration may be a problem, though I'm becoming less convinced of that fact by the day, but the medicine that the political right in this country has been proposing is far more corrosive than the problem ever was. Border Security has been strengthened so much fold in the last few decades to the effect that now there are literal child concentration camps and a bureacracy that is now abducting people with green cards and asylum WITH NO KIND OF SUPERVISION OR OVERSIGHT WHATSOEVER.

If you view illegal immigration as a problem, wouldn't you view it through the lens of incentives and then go after those incentives? JOBS. People won't come here if you have to verify yourself as a united states citizen to even work anywhere. But no surprise, the GOP wouldn't be caught dead penalizing mega farms, fast food chains, and all the other people that fill the party's campaign coffers, so instead they go with the solution that allows them to rile up people's fears and resentment of the other.

The TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION argument is basically the only thing our government has been doing for the last twenty-thirty years and, as you can see, not only does it not work but it is actively harmful for a variety of reasons. Time to try something else.

Most of the tough on immigration Republicans are all for e-verify. For obvious reasons the Bush administration was going to go after their bread and butter. Obama was actually better at this than Bush. As for Trump, his administration is an incompetent mess so getting anything done effectively is an impossible order for him.

Of course you do have a lot of business oriented Republicans who indeed adopt the rhetoric and as you say incite the tensions but have no interest in actually enforcing the work place. Their backers won't allow it because they are bought and paid for.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Look, I’m a prosecutor. My job every day is to make sure that all types of people are punished for their crimes. Sometimes, depending on the facts of the case, that means giving offenders the maximum jail sentence under the law. I believe unauthorized entry into this country should be illegal. And I believe it should be punished like any other crime. Under federal law, first time illegal immigration is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine and up to six months in prison. That means in terms of seriousness of crimes, in most jurisdictions it would rank right up there with shoplifting and simple possession of a marijuana joint.

I believe crimes should be punished. But I cannot condone inhumane treatment of prisoners. For me it’s not about race or politics: it would shock my conscience if our country’s government was treating any class of people this way. I would have the same reaction if our government went into any major city and rounded up every single last shoplifter and pot smoker, threw then all in a makeshift tent city that was nowhere near ready to handle that capacity, and then threw their children in a separate internment camp for “deterrence purposes.”

I very much agree with the highlighted portion. 

I would emphasize that the issue of treatment of detainees, of HOW they should be detained, is a different issue from the question of WHETHER they should be detained.  The children should be detained in humane environments, and not separated from their parents, provided that the adults with those children ARE, indeed, their parents or legal guardians.  If it takes an increase in spending to accomplish that, so be it. 

That isn't the issue with many folks, however.  The "concentration camps" exaggeration (that's being kind; it's really a flat-out lie) is a narrative being deliberately nurtured in social media to generate the idea of (A) it's not possible to detain those who have illegally entered the country in a humane manner, and (B) we now need to just let them all come in to "atone" for our "atrocities".  It's emotional blackmail using a false narrative.

For TexasGurl, I capitalized the word "ILLEGAL" to ask people what should be done, given the fact that these folks are breaking the law to come in here.  There are many folks who advocate just letting everyone in (including many elected officials) who would let all of the illegals come in and stay in, but they don't want to be caught saying that due to electoral repercussions.  Much of the 'concentration camp" false narrative is to manipulate public opinion to allow everyone who wants to  come to America do so.  If folks' main goal is to have totally open borders, with no immigration restrictions, or something that pushes the US significantly in that direction from what we have now, then I would at least appreciate them being honest about their real goals.

[Person Man]

This whole "My grandpa and grandma came here from Germany/Italy/Ireland/Spain/Sweden/etc. LEGALLY!" trope is one of the biggest right-wing myths ever trotted out.

OF COURSE your great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandpa came here "legally."  THERE WAS NO IMMIGRATION LAW IN 18-whatever AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.  You didn't have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of statutes and regulations covering immigration law that rival only the US Tax Code in scope, complexity, and difficulty. 

All you really needed was to prove that you weren't carrying any dreadful diseases and that you weren't a criminal or tied to any current foreign enemy, and you were good as gold to come in.

So, the whole "legal vs. illegal" thing needs to stop.

We had no standards in the past so now we are bound to have no standards forever?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 as opposed to the immigration law we had in 1950?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 but not the same laws regarding racial segregation we had in 1950?

"We did this in the past so we have to do it this way now" is a dumb argument.

I agree with you about the distinction between illegal and legal immigration needs to go.

We're full. We shouldn't allow either.

Wrong.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Trump+wrong&view=detail&mid=2A133C827ED9FF28F74D2A133C827ED9FF28F74D&FORM=VRRTAP&vrvid=2A133C827ED9FF28F74D2A133C827ED9FF28F74D

[HillGoose]

This whole "My grandpa and grandma came here from Germany/Italy/Ireland/Spain/Sweden/etc. LEGALLY!" trope is one of the biggest right-wing myths ever trotted out.

OF COURSE your great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandpa came here "legally."  THERE WAS NO IMMIGRATION LAW IN 18-whatever AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.  You didn't have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of statutes and regulations covering immigration law that rival only the US Tax Code in scope, complexity, and difficulty. 

All you really needed was to prove that you weren't carrying any dreadful diseases and that you weren't a criminal or tied to any current foreign enemy, and you were good as gold to come in.

So, the whole "legal vs. illegal" thing needs to stop.

We had no standards in the past so now we are bound to have no standards forever?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 as opposed to the immigration law we had in 1950?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 but not the same laws regarding racial segregation we had in 1950?

"We did this in the past so we have to do it this way now" is a dumb argument.

I agree with you about the distinction between illegal and legal immigration needs to go.

We're full. We shouldn't allow either.

"We're full" bruh there's too many jobs here for Americans to possibly fill, and without immigration America's population starts to decline because Americans reproduce below replacement level. Without immigration there's going to be a labor shortage and the economy is going to stagnate then in 30 years we'll probably be a third world country because our economy died of labor shortage

[Person Man]

This whole "My grandpa and grandma came here from Germany/Italy/Ireland/Spain/Sweden/etc. LEGALLY!" trope is one of the biggest right-wing myths ever trotted out.

OF COURSE your great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandpa came here "legally."  THERE WAS NO IMMIGRATION LAW IN 18-whatever AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.  You didn't have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of statutes and regulations covering immigration law that rival only the US Tax Code in scope, complexity, and difficulty. 

All you really needed was to prove that you weren't carrying any dreadful diseases and that you weren't a criminal or tied to any current foreign enemy, and you were good as gold to come in.

So, the whole "legal vs. illegal" thing needs to stop.

We had no standards in the past so now we are bound to have no standards forever?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 as opposed to the immigration law we had in 1950?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 but not the same laws regarding racial segregation we had in 1950?

"We did this in the past so we have to do it this way now" is a dumb argument.

I agree with you about the distinction between illegal and legal immigration needs to go.

We're full. We shouldn't allow either.

"We're full" bruh there's too many jobs here for Americans to possibly fill, and without immigration America's population starts to decline because Americans reproduce below replacement level. Without immigration there's going to be a labor shortage and the economy is going to stagnate then in 30 years we'll probably be a third world country because our economy died of labor shortage

He probably gets a lot of traffic jams on his commute. I feel your pain, bruh. I had to once do a 24 mile commute that took an hour!

[136or142]

This whole "My grandpa and grandma came here from Germany/Italy/Ireland/Spain/Sweden/etc. LEGALLY!" trope is one of the biggest right-wing myths ever trotted out.

OF COURSE your great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandpa came here "legally."  THERE WAS NO IMMIGRATION LAW IN 18-whatever AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.  You didn't have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of statutes and regulations covering immigration law that rival only the US Tax Code in scope, complexity, and difficulty. 

All you really needed was to prove that you weren't carrying any dreadful diseases and that you weren't a criminal or tied to any current foreign enemy, and you were good as gold to come in.

So, the whole "legal vs. illegal" thing needs to stop.

We had no standards in the past so now we are bound to have no standards forever?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 as opposed to the immigration law we had in 1950?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 but not the same laws regarding racial segregation we had in 1950?

"We did this in the past so we have to do it this way now" is a dumb argument.

I agree with you about the distinction between illegal and legal immigration needs to go.

We're full. We shouldn't allow either.

"We're full" bruh there's too many jobs here for Americans to possibly fill, and without immigration America's population starts to decline because Americans reproduce below replacement level. Without immigration there's going to be a labor shortage and the economy is going to stagnate then in 30 years we'll probably be a third world country because our economy died of labor shortage

Over a 30 year period that would depend on the extent to which capital can replace labor. 

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sad to see so many Democrats concede to Republican arguments on the principle and opt instead to quibble on policy details. This is why we keep losing.

[136or142]

Sad to see so many Democrats concede to Republican arguments on the principle and opt instead to quibble on policy details. This is why we keep losing.

If you want to argue on the principle, the best way to do that would be that 'free trade' can't really exist unless there is also free movement of labor, but 'free trade' isn't too popular with Republicans right now.

[Jeffster]

This whole "My grandpa and grandma came here from Germany/Italy/Ireland/Spain/Sweden/etc. LEGALLY!" trope is one of the biggest right-wing myths ever trotted out.

OF COURSE your great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandpa came here "legally."  THERE WAS NO IMMIGRATION LAW IN 18-whatever AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.  You didn't have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of statutes and regulations covering immigration law that rival only the US Tax Code in scope, complexity, and difficulty. 

All you really needed was to prove that you weren't carrying any dreadful diseases and that you weren't a criminal or tied to any current foreign enemy, and you were good as gold to come in.

So, the whole "legal vs. illegal" thing needs to stop.

We had no standards in the past so now we are bound to have no standards forever?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 as opposed to the immigration law we had in 1950?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 but not the same laws regarding racial segregation we had in 1950?

"We did this in the past so we have to do it this way now" is a dumb argument.

I agree with you about the distinction between illegal and legal immigration needs to go.

We're full. We shouldn't allow either.

"We're full" bruh there's too many jobs here for Americans to possibly fill, and without immigration America's population starts to decline because Americans reproduce below replacement level. Without immigration there's going to be a labor shortage and the economy is going to stagnate then in 30 years we'll probably be a third world country because our economy died of labor shortage

Labor shortages are good for workers because it causes wages to rise. You guys claim to care about working people but you support every type of policy to make their lives worse. You want to crowd their cities, schools, hospitals, and drive up the cost of housing, while at the same time you want to increase the labor supply to drive down their wages, or support free trade agreements that outsource jobs to the countries with the least amount of labor and environmental protections. It's like the left has completely lost it's mind these days. And last I checked, Japan has not become a third world country.

Also, how can you guys claim to care about the environment when you always want to grow the population forever in order to continue economic ponzi schemes?

[Gass3268]

Illegally crossing the border is only misdemeanor, so only a minor problem.

[Jeffster]

It amazes me that the party that had historically supported labor unions now openly embraces what amounts to scab labor. That's why I'm no longer a Democrat. I'm not a Republican either so don't even go there. If the Democrats would come to their senses on immigration and trade I'd come back.

[Frodo]

This issue has been hyped for political gain, and I am not surprised in the least that Fuzzy has fallen for the bait. 

[Lord Admirale]

Yes, but its a minor problem. We need to reform the system to enter the country legally and make it easier to prevent illegal/undocumented immigration.

[BBD]

It amazes me that the party that had historically supported labor unions now openly embraces what amounts to scab labor. That's why I'm no longer a Democrat. I'm not a Republican either so don't even go there. If the Democrats would come to their senses on immigration and trade I'd come back.

Are American citizens actually willing to do the jobs that migrant workers currently do?

[Famous Mortimer]

With voting trends the way they are, the left knows that all these people will be dems for life. That's why there's tacit approval of illegal immigration. they could not care less about the moral/humanitarian aspect of it all

Question to Republicans: If immigrants started voting Republican, would the GOP take their feet off their necks?

If immigrants were voting Republican, the parties' positions on immigration would flip relatively quickly.

If immigrants were voting Republican, we'd have either a very different type of immigrant, or a very different type of GOP.

Exactly.

This is a dumb hypothetical.

The vast majority of migrants in the world are economic and/or welfare migrants. They are poor. They are not going to vote for a free market party that generally supports cutting welfare.

If illegal immigrants supported the GOP it would be because they had an entirely different economic profile than the illegal immigrants we are getting from Central America right now but the people with that economic profile are unlikely to immigrate illegally in the first place.

The one exception would be members of a country's ruling class who get displaced by a revolution, like what happened in Cuba but ruling classes are, almost by definition, tiny groups, so this kind of immigrant is never going to make up a majority of people who seek to immigrate.

[Famous Mortimer]

It amazes me that the party that had historically supported labor unions now openly embraces what amounts to scab labor. That's why I'm no longer a Democrat. I'm not a Republican either so don't even go there. If the Democrats would come to their senses on immigration and trade I'd come back.

Are American citizens actually willing to do the jobs that migrant workers currently do?

Not for the wages that scabs work for. That's the point of scabs.

[Jeffster]

It amazes me that the party that had historically supported labor unions now openly embraces what amounts to scab labor. That's why I'm no longer a Democrat. I'm not a Republican either so don't even go there. If the Democrats would come to their senses on immigration and trade I'd come back.

Are American citizens actually willing to do the jobs that migrant workers currently do?

For the right wage they will. You guys make it seem like American citizens won't work outdoors or do anything that involves a lot of physical effort. They will do those jobs if the price is right. If they are looking at two jobs that pay the same wage, one that is working outside in the hot sun and the other that involves working retail in an air conditioned building, of course they'd choose the retail job. So that means businesses have to pay more for the outside physical jobs. It seems to me that all you guys want is a permanent underclass of cheap labor to exploit all so you can have cheap goods. So before you start bemoaning the possible increase in the prices of goods if we paid better wages, let me ask if you support raising the minimum wage?

[Kodak]

This whole "My grandpa and grandma came here from Germany/Italy/Ireland/Spain/Sweden/etc. LEGALLY!" trope is one of the biggest right-wing myths ever trotted out.

OF COURSE your great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandpa came here "legally."  THERE WAS NO IMMIGRATION LAW IN 18-whatever AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.  You didn't have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of statutes and regulations covering immigration law that rival only the US Tax Code in scope, complexity, and difficulty. 

All you really needed was to prove that you weren't carrying any dreadful diseases and that you weren't a criminal or tied to any current foreign enemy, and you were good as gold to come in.

So, the whole "legal vs. illegal" thing needs to stop.

We had no standards in the past so now we are bound to have no standards forever?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 as opposed to the immigration law we had in 1950?

Why are we bound to have the same immigration law we had in 1900 but not the same laws regarding racial segregation we had in 1950?

"We did this in the past so we have to do it this way now" is a dumb argument.

I agree with you about the distinction between illegal and legal immigration needs to go.

We're full. We shouldn't allow either.

"We're full" bruh there are too many jobs here for Americans to possibly fill, and without immigration, America's population starts to decline because Americans reproduce below replacement level. Without immigration, there's going to be a labor shortage and the economy is going to stagnate then in 30 years we'll probably be a third world country because our economy died of labor shortage

Labor shortages are good for workers because it causes wages to rise. You guys claim to care about working people but you support every type of policy to make their lives worse. You want to crowd their cities, schools, hospitals, and drive up the cost of housing, while at the same time you want to increase the labor supply to drive down their wages or support free trade agreements that outsource jobs to the countries with the least amount of labor and environmental protections. It's like the left has completely lost its mind these days. And last I checked, Japan has not become a third world country.

Also, how can you guys claim to care about the environment when you always want to grow the population forever in order to continue economic Ponzi schemes?

Nice rant, but Hillgoose isn't a Democrat and never claimed to care about the environment.

And if you're not a socialist, then he's absolutely right. You're only looking at one half of population decline, which is the shrinking labor pool. Because the consumer base will shrink at the same time, businesses will go bankrupt.

Japan is also a net exporter, so if the rest of the world followed their model then everyone will still end up bankrupt.

It is imperative that either the consumer base increases or we ditch capitalism altogether.

[BBD]

It amazes me that the party that had historically supported labor unions now openly embraces what amounts to scab labor. That's why I'm no longer a Democrat. I'm not a Republican either so don't even go there. If the Democrats would come to their senses on immigration and trade I'd come back.

Are American citizens actually willing to do the jobs that migrant workers currently do?

For the right wage they will. You guys make it seem like American citizens won't work outdoors or do anything that involves a lot of physical effort. They will do those jobs if the price is right. If they are looking at two jobs that pay the same wage, one that is working outside in the hot sun and the other that involves working retail in an air conditioned building, of course they'd choose the retail job. So that means businesses have to pay more for the outside physical jobs. It seems to me that all you guys want is a permanent underclass of cheap labor to exploit all so you can have cheap goods. So before you start bemoaning the possible increase in the prices of goods if we paid better wages, let me ask if you support raising the minimum wage?

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

Read this article.

[Jeffster]

It amazes me that the party that had historically supported labor unions now openly embraces what amounts to scab labor. That's why I'm no longer a Democrat. I'm not a Republican either so don't even go there. If the Democrats would come to their senses on immigration and trade I'd come back.

Are American citizens actually willing to do the jobs that migrant workers currently do?

For the right wage they will. You guys make it seem like American citizens won't work outdoors or do anything that involves a lot of physical effort. They will do those jobs if the price is right. If they are looking at two jobs that pay the same wage, one that is working outside in the hot sun and the other that involves working retail in an air conditioned building, of course they'd choose the retail job. So that means businesses have to pay more for the outside physical jobs. It seems to me that all you guys want is a permanent underclass of cheap labor to exploit all so you can have cheap goods. So before you start bemoaning the possible increase in the prices of goods if we paid better wages, let me ask if you support raising the minimum wage?

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

Read this article.

Then he needs to raise wages even more. I know people who work warehouse jobs for $15-16/hr. Why would they choose to work in the fields for what amounts to a temp job instead of a full time job in an air conditioned distribution center?

How about you read this article:

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-construction-trump/

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

It's a comparatively minor logistical issue in the grand scheme of things that bears little responsibility in the collapse of living standards over the past forty-plus years, contrary to what right-wing media wants you to believe.

From a moral perspective, of course not. I have a much higher opinion of the median undocumented immigrant than I do of (e.g.) the average conservative boomer, but even if I didn't, it'd be irrelevant, because the concept of national borders and preventing individuals - even the ones I might dislike! - from traveling to certain areas of the world because of what location they happened to be born in (or, in countries without jus soli, which countries their parents happen to hail from) is so ludicrously indefensible from any reasonable standpoint that I'd find it almost puerile if it wasn't the prevailing thought among dumb-dumbs convinced that the subaltern immigrant class is more responsible for their poor material conditions than their superiors in the workplace who deprive them from the full fruit of their labor.

At least this poster is intellectually honest about his underlying motivation.

[BBD]

Key points from both articles:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

First: I agree that exploitation of migrant workers in exchange for cheap goods is despicable.
But you just can't expect smaller growers to increase their wages with the snap of a finger. They're either forced to shut down or mechanize. Mechanization in this case is a positive step, and I think it should be encouraged whenever possible. In the end, as technology advances, the vast majority of farm jobs, even those that pay more currently, may be replaced by machines, and that's probably for the better. But even current growers that can afford and do raise wages and benefits comparable to white-collar jobs aren't able to find enough American workers. You can't just expect these latter type of growers to continue increasing their wages far beyond what a retailer pays in order to cater to American citizens who still refuse to take the job. What is quantifiable as "good enough" for American workers in order to get dirty and do physical labor? A lot of younger Americans simply aren't willing to do physical jobs no matter how good the pay is.

That allows us to transition to the article you posted, which brought up the same point. Young people simply don't have the have the same sort of mentality as previous generations regarding jobs that require physical labor. According to the Vegas hirer I quoted from the article, it was excruciatingly hard to find Americans to fill even union apprenticeships in the construction industry during a construction boom, but immigrants applied readily for the job. There were tensions in the local union when the balance was thus shifted 50-50 native-born - immigrant; those already there felt that they were "under threat". It sure is interesting that they'd feel that way when it was clear that it was Americans who were unwilling to apply, even though they were union jobs. Look, I agree that the decline of organized labor in the United States is truly a shame. Union workers built this country, and the decline has only fattened the wallets of corporate CEOs and wealthy people. I also think it's a shame that nonunion hirers are taking advantage of migrants who are willing to do the job without the benefits that come from being organized because organized labor isn't prevalent in the culture of their origin. But a lot of the faux-populism from people such as Trump shifts blame towards migrant workers when it simply isn't the case; American workers have become less and less willing to to do even unionized jobs that require physical labor, not to mention nonunion jobs. Causing division and scapegoating others are not the solution. Note that a lot of the "new" generation of construction workers mentioned in the article aren't even illegal - they came here legally. The line between illegal and legal immigrant has been severely watered down; it is clear at this point that many of those who rail against illegal immigration but claim to support legal immigration are hiding their true colors. And it's quite hypocritical, considering the fact that the ancestors of those who now feel this way often suffered the same sort of discrimination from then-native born citizens, whose ancestors or themselves displaced American Indians.