Is the American public turning on Israel?

[AndyHogan14]

I think the constant use of ad hominem attacks against BDS and its supporters by Israel supporters, namely accusations of antisemitism is damaging the perception of Israel in the view of many people.

When you start to heavily rely on ad hominem attacks instead of attempting to rationally refute the arguments the other side is putting forward, it makes it appear that you do not have the means to rationally refute the point being brought forward by the other side.

I used to be pro Israel. But part of what contributed towards me changing my view on the subject was in how the BDS debate played out.

The BDS movement would come out with actual points and arguments to back their view, while opponents would scream "antisemitism" every time, but never really seemed to attempt to produce rational counterpoints or arguments to back their view. Because of this, it appeared that the reason BDS opponents engaged in such ad hominem attacks was because the rational counterpoints or arguments one would expect them to produce did not actually exist.

Using ad hominem attacks does not earn you supporters from people who are unsure about the scope of the issue in debate, and in some cases, it can cost you supporters from people who start to doubt the integrity of your position.

This is somewhat amusing because I have had the exact opposite experience. I was a soft supporter of Israel a few years ago and now I am an extremely strong supporter because of the BDS types (in Berkeley, mind you) screaming that Israelis are Nazis, that they have an apartheid government, and that they are ethnically cleansing the West Bank/Gaza. All of those opinions are absurd. Is Israel flawed? Sure. But it is, by far, the most democratic, liberal, and secular government in a region filled with abhorrent regimes.

[Silent Hunter]

That's like comparing dysentry to Ebola.

[tallguy23]

You can support Israel while opposing Netanyahu and his disastrous, self-serving policies.
But I guess that notion requires too much thought for some people.

My thoughts exactly. I can still love America but abhor our current president.

I honestly feel bad for the Palestinian and Israeli citizens who are used as pawns in a political/violent war between Hamas and Likud. Most people across the globe want the same things (security, health, happiness, a good future for their children), yet those in power tend to muck it up for everyone.

[American2020]

You can support Israel while opposing Netanyahu and his disastrous, self-serving policies.
But I guess that notion requires too much thought for some people.

My thoughts exactly. I can still love America but abhor our current president.

I honestly feel bad for the Palestinian and Israeli citizens who are used as pawns in a political/violent war between Hamas and Likud. Most people across the globe want the same things (security, health, happiness, a good future for their children), yet those in power tend to muck it up for everyone.

[Catholics vs. Convicts]

We should love and support Israel like one would with their child. But good parents do not let bratty kids make a scene in the neighborhood and beat up on the neighbor kids.

[Lord Admirale]

It'd be foolish for us to turn our backs to Israel. They're the most liberal nation there compared to the reactionary Middle East.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

It'd be foolish for us to turn our backs to Israel. They're the most liberal nation there compared to the reactionary Middle East.

There's really no reason to pick any side in the middle east. And anyways Israel and Saudi Arabia are cooperating with their anti-Iran agenda.

[YE]

It'd be foolish for us to turn our backs to Israel. They're the most liberal nation there compared to the reactionary Middle East.

I never understood this right wing talking point at all. Israel culturally is different than any other middle eastern country so Israel is not likely to contribute to blossoming democracy in the Middle East.

[Lord Admirale]

It'd be foolish for us to turn our backs to Israel. They're the most liberal nation there compared to the reactionary Middle East.

I never understood this right wing talking point at all. Israel culturally is different than any other middle eastern country so Israel is not likely to contribute to blossoming democracy in the Middle East.

This is right-wing how?

[YE]

It'd be foolish for us to turn our backs to Israel. They're the most liberal nation there compared to the reactionary Middle East.

I never understood this right wing talking point at all. Israel culturally is different than any other middle eastern country so Israel is not likely to contribute to blossoming democracy in the Middle East.

This is right-wing how?

[Lord Admirale]

It'd be foolish for us to turn our backs to Israel. They're the most liberal nation there compared to the reactionary Middle East.

I never understood this right wing talking point at all. Israel culturally is different than any other middle eastern country so Israel is not likely to contribute to blossoming democracy in the Middle East.

This is right-wing how?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Nobody's mentioned a pretty obvious point: the Israeli government has played a pretty dangerous game in openly taking sides in US partisan politics. Think from the perspective of a partisan Democrat, or someone who generally likes Obama and dislikes the GOP. When you're a partisan, a lot of your peripheral views get altered depending on who is on your side or not (e.g. even if you don't care about tax policy, because you joined the GOP because you are pro-life, overtime you will be more likely to advocate for lower and flatter taxes etc). Why would your average Democrat support a government that appears to oppose your favourite politicians and support your least favourites? This is especially risky for the Israelis as a good portion of these voters are Jewish voters, who for the most part are more loyal to their liberal beliefs than the state of Israel.

(This is starting to fall into my personal theory that the tenets of nationalism are starting to collapse in on themselves as it's seen as more and more ok for countries to openly meddle with each others elections in a very non-clandestine manner; the barrier between statecraft and politics is weakening.)

[courts]

Nobody's mentioned a pretty obvious point: the Israeli government has played a pretty dangerous game in openly taking sides in US partisan politics. Think from the perspective of a partisan Democrat, or someone who generally likes Obama and dislikes the GOP. When you're a partisan, a lot of your peripheral views get altered depending on who is on your side or not (e.g. even if you don't care about tax policy, because you joined the GOP because you are pro-life, overtime you will be more likely to advocate for lower and flatter taxes etc). Why would your average Democrat support a government that appears to oppose your favourite politicians and support your least favourites? This is especially risky for the Israelis as a good portion of these voters are Jewish voters, who for the most part are more loyal to their liberal beliefs than the state of Israel.

(This is starting to fall into my personal theory that the tenets of nationalism are starting to collapse in on themselves as it's seen as more and more ok for countries to openly meddle with each others elections in a very non-clandestine manner; the barrier between statecraft and politics is weakening.)

worse it happened under a black president.the settlements obviously don't help public opinion with growing amounts of blacks and hispanics.because it seems uncomfortably...colonial.but that definitely compounded it.and raised other questions.perhaps its unfair to imply netanyahu did that because he was part african..but you have to know that was in the back of a lot of people's minds.there's already enough questions about if republicans obstructed obama because he was part african

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I’m glad that supporting barbaric theocrats over the only remotely civilized country in that region of the country has become a mainstream position.

Otherwise how would we be able to be lectured about the struggle of moderate (TM) Muslims to only sometimes chop off heretics’ heads and throw gays off buildings?

Apologists for the barbarism of Islam disgust me. I appreciate that we can’t discriminate against individuals but the notion that the religion is beyond reproach or its’ supporters are somehow sacred when the Christian Right has become the only censorable and mockable group in society repulses me. Christians are deluded and have caused tons of damage themselves with their fantasy over the last two thousand years, but their threat in the modern day is negligible in comparison.

Can we not be stupid in this thread? There is no use pretending that MENA is a paradise on earth or anything, but the idea that the region is uniformly ISIL-esque in its religious fervour is equally ridiculous and illogical.

I don't see why it's necessary to be so damn hyperbolic in this argument. It isn't enough to say that your average country in MENA is kleptocratic, oligarchic, patriarchal and with little concern for human rights; and that their oppositions often have problems of their own; but you have to furnish your argument with this absurd alternative universe of hordes of cackling and evil muslims that are driven to insanity by religion.

[courts]

yikes

[courts]

to be clear i'm not implying that i think bibi did that because he thinks he's a smelly african..i don't think that's the case for,idk paul ryan or something either.just you know...that's going to be how a lot of people see it.i've definitely heard it

[Progressive Pessimist]

The vast majority of Americans, including Obama, still strongly support Israel, even though many of us don't support the grandstanding prick criminal apartheidist in charge of the country.

This is more or less my position. If that asshole were out of office, I'd be far more supportive of Israel than I am now.

I'm pretty much in tune with this position as well, and I'm a Jew. Furthermore, I'm in a weird position where I seem to be too pro-Israel for the BDS crowd, of whom I do not support, but I'm also too sympathetic to Palestinians and too wary of the Likud Party to be a full-on Zionist. This isn't actually uncommon though. I have a lot of Jewish friends that feel like I do. Hell, my sister went on Birthright in January and doesn't feel compelled to defend the move of the embassy or support Netanyahu or anything like that. They even informed her in detail about the country's politics while she was there. She was thankful to learn what she did and said it was a great experience, but in talking to her, I think she understands that her loyalty is to the USA and the main political concerns that she has are based on what is happening here and now in our own country. I cannot fault her for feeling that way. While I still have never been to the country, I support Israel, but it doesn't have to be an either or situation and others, Jewish or not, seem to be realizing that. So maybe this is indicative of a change in attitudes towards Israel over the years towards a more nuanced perspective.

[AndyHogan14]

Nobody's mentioned a pretty obvious point: the Israeli government has played a pretty dangerous game in openly taking sides in US partisan politics. Think from the perspective of a partisan Democrat, or someone who generally likes Obama and dislikes the GOP. When you're a partisan, a lot of your peripheral views get altered depending on who is on your side or not (e.g. even if you don't care about tax policy, because you joined the GOP because you are pro-life, overtime you will be more likely to advocate for lower and flatter taxes etc). Why would your average Democrat support a government that appears to oppose your favourite politicians and support your least favourites? This is especially risky for the Israelis as a good portion of these voters are Jewish voters, who for the most part are more loyal to their liberal beliefs than the state of Israel.

(This is starting to fall into my personal theory that the tenets of nationalism are starting to collapse in on themselves as it's seen as more and more ok for countries to openly meddle with each others elections in a very non-clandestine manner; the barrier between statecraft and politics is weakening.)

I agree 100%. As a fairly political person, I can look beyond the Netanyahu government and their issues, but it was extremely stupid for him to help make Israel a partisan issue here in the US.

[Roronoa D. Law]

No, most of the Anti-Israeli sentiment in the West is caused by Netanyahu government. Many see him as instigator who constantly provokes its Muslim neighbors and retreats to NATO when met with push back. The country hard shift towards nationalism and the governance of divide and rule has caused many supporters who originally supported the Zionist movement to feel disassociated.

[Person Man]

No, most of the Anti-Israeli sentiment in the West is caused by Netanyahu government. Many see him as instigator who constantly provokes its Muslim neighbors and retreats to NATO when met with push back. The country hard shift towards nationalism and the governance of divide and rule has caused many supporters who originally supported the Zionist movement to feel disassociated.

As soon as the pendulum swings back in Israel, so it will in the US? I can believe that.

[Don Vito Corleone]

Not necessarily. Certainly, the anti-Israel forces on the left have become increasingly magnified in recent years.

And what about the anti-Israel forces on the right, that gather in huge numbers with tiki torches and chant "Jews will not replace us?"
How "magnified" in just the last 2 years, has this/them become?

Of course, that's true, but let's not pretend that anti-Israel sentiment on the right and left are comparable; they're not. Focus on the graph on the right.

That graph is quite interesting. Does anyone know why such a big partisan gap on this issue opened in the mid 2000's?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Not necessarily. Certainly, the anti-Israel forces on the left have become increasingly magnified in recent years.

And what about the anti-Israel forces on the right, that gather in huge numbers with tiki torches and chant "Jews will not replace us?"
How "magnified" in just the last 2 years, has this/them become?

Of course, that's true, but let's not pretend that anti-Israel sentiment on the right and left are comparable; they're not. Focus on the graph on the right.

That graph is quite interesting. Does anyone know why such a big partisan gap on this issue opened in the mid 2000's?

I imagine the Republican numbers went up in the mid 2000s because of the demise of the Paleocon wing of the party, which basically neutralized the anti-Israel sentiment in the party. As for the Democrat drop, that's simple - Obama made it mainstream, and he had a cult-like following among the party base.

[Hammy]

Not necessarily. Certainly, the anti-Israel forces on the left have become increasingly magnified in recent years.

And what about the anti-Israel forces on the right, that gather in huge numbers with tiki torches and chant "Jews will not replace us?"
How "magnified" in just the last 2 years, has this/them become?

Of course, that's true, but let's not pretend that anti-Israel sentiment on the right and left are comparable; they're not. Focus on the graph on the right.

That graph is quite interesting. Does anyone know why such a big partisan gap on this issue opened in the mid 2000's?

I imagine the Republican numbers went up in the mid 2000s because of the demise of the Paleocon wing of the party, which basically neutralized the anti-Israel sentiment in the party. As for the Democrat drop, that's simple - Obama made it mainstream, and he had a cult-like following among the party base. Netanyahu became prime minister.

FTFY.

[GMantis]

Not necessarily. Certainly, the anti-Israel forces on the left have become increasingly magnified in recent years.

And what about the anti-Israel forces on the right, that gather in huge numbers with tiki torches and chant "Jews will not replace us?"
How "magnified" in just the last 2 years, has this/them become?

Of course, that's true, but let's not pretend that anti-Israel sentiment on the right and left are comparable; they're not. Focus on the graph on the right.

That graph is quite interesting. Does anyone know why such a big partisan gap on this issue opened in the mid 2000's?

I imagine the Republican numbers went up in the mid 2000s because of the demise of the Paleocon wing of the party, which basically neutralized the anti-Israel sentiment in the party. As for the Democrat drop, that's simple - Obama made it mainstream, and he had a cult-like following among the party base.

If this was, support for Israel would have increased massively once Obama was elected since he (unlikely the straw-man Obama that only exists in your mind) supported Israel unconditionally up until the last UN security council resolution which only confirmed what is officially US policy anyway.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I think that Israel-Palestine has become more of a partisan issue and certainly more starkly a Left-Right issue in that one's support for Israel (or at the very least, its government and their actions in regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict) declines precipitously the further Left you go - though in terms of party politics, Republicans are far more united in supporting Israel than Democrats are in not supporting it. Also, the most powerful Democrats aren't exactly uh, hostile to Israel - look at the Senate Democratic leader, lmao. Most of the Democrats who matter in the Beltway and in the foreign policy Establishment are as pro-Israel as anyone.

Also, as has been mentioned before, supporting Israel = /= you're not an anti-Semite, as a lot of the hardcore Christian Right supporters of Israel like Robert Jeffress have demonstrated. Even people who are very obviously Far Right and opposed to the (((globalists))) support Israel in uh, "civilizational" terms against the threat of Radical Islamic Terrorism. I think what CrabCake said about nationalism plays into this, but also, the political opportunism of Clash of Civilizations-types on the Far Right who constantly scream about how the violent browns Arabs/Muslims are out of control and how Israel is on the front lines of The War.

I also thought ghost white's post re: racism from Israeli leaders and their allies in the US directed towards Obama or towards Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims generally (the whole "racialization" or Othering of Muslims) is a big factor, too. Conversely, there is also a lot of very real anti-Semitism on the Left and within the Palestinian diaspora, the Arab world, the Islamic world in general, and within "communities of color" within the US specifically - which does have implications for Democratic Party politics in certain cases...

Bottom line: No one's hands are clean here.