UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[cp]

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I see they're early with laying the groundwork for the inevitable "stab-in-the-back" myth after Brexit devastates the British economy. And then, the very resentment that led people to vote for it in the first place will only be multiplied many times over and be, ironically, aimed at exactly those who were trying to minimize the damage, to say nothing of the EU and foreigners in general (hence also the imminent UKIP comeback, or whatever replaces it).

Funny enough, next year is also the 100th anniversary of the Treaty of Versailles.

I doubt it would get that far. A rejection of May's deal, whomever it was blamed on, would very likely result in a new election, a Labour government, and an end to UK/EU negotiations one way or another (either by revoking Article 50 or by signing a super-soft deal).

If Fox is laying the groundwork for anything it's the probably futile effort to convince the most irreconcilable Europhobes in the Tory party to accept May's watered down deal; a kind of throwing up of hands and saying 'well, it's either this or a catastrophe: what else can we do?;.

[Blair]

There's plenty of poor white (and BAME) people in Islington; Frank Field knows that, and he's just doing what Frank Field always does.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Labour core votes are Black and ethnic minority voters (particularly Muslims), though the tories been making inroads among Hindu and Sikh voters
 White working class voters have been abandoning labour slowly for while, 

This is a ridiculous overstatement.

[Blair]

There's a big difference between white working class voters in say Liverpool Walton (which has a Labour majority of something like 30K) and white working class voters in South Thanet.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Remind me again, what percentage of the electorate (approximately) is non-white? Exactly. This particular imported Take isn't even worth discussing.

[EPG]

There's a big difference between white working class voters in say Liverpool Walton (which has a Labour majority of something like 30K) and white working class voters in South Thanet.

Known in Brexitology as Das Brexit-Knowsley-Problem.

[parochial boy]

There's a big difference between white working class voters in say Liverpool Walton (which has a Labour majority of something like 30K) and white working class voters in South Thanet.

The ones in South Thanet were born about 30 years earlier

And Labour actually did surprisingly well in a lot of those South Coast constituencies (ie not just Brighton) in 2017 as well

[parochial boy]

Remember this chart doing the rounds after the 2017 election? Some would say it's indicative... of something...

[EPG]

Remember this chart doing the rounds after the 2017 election? Some would say it's indicative... of something...

OK, accepting this line of argument is roughly true. But when people talk about the White Working Class, what's not usually meant is poor and deprived people, would you agree?
My impression of White Working Class is that the idea describes people who have something to lose, and are losing or fear they might lose it.
I think it has to include being White, Skilled manual workers or possibly non-professional service workers.
I think it may include people above low incomes, people with housing assets, self-employed people, non-members of a trade union, and even certain kinds of manager.
It probably doesn't include professionals or university graduates. Indeed, higher education might be the real phenomenon here.

The contradictions to the standard Marxian model of class struggle in democracy are why it's such an interesting category. It's certainly useful, but must be used with care. E.g., I think one would struggle to explain Brexitrump without this category.

[Pouring Rain and Blairing Music]

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1026772623156543488?s=19

No change among any of the big national parties.

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[parochial boy]

Remember this chart doing the rounds after the 2017 election? Some would say it's indicative... of something...

OK, accepting this line of argument is roughly true. But when people talk about the White Working Class, what's not usually meant is poor and deprived people, would you agree?
My impression of White Working Class is that the idea describes people who have something to lose, and are losing or fear they might lose it.
I think it has to include being White, Skilled manual workers or possibly non-professional service workers.
I think it may include people above low incomes, people with housing assets, self-employed people, non-members of a trade union, and even certain kinds of manager.
It probably doesn't include professionals or university graduates. Indeed, higher education might be the real phenomenon here.

The contradictions to the standard Marxian model of class struggle in democracy are why it's such an interesting category. It's certainly useful, but must be used with care. E.g., I think one would struggle to explain Brexitrump without this category.

I think what it boils down to, is a point that we've discussed before, in that in British class terminology, the "working class" label is so wide as to be entirely meaningless. It can include the sainsbury's security guard, the small town white van man, the call centre worker...who all have completely different lives, outlooks and voting habits. I mean in the above chart, Labour are winning in the 4th and 5th deciles, which is hardly "deprived" really. Likewise, those old colliery seats in Durham or South Wales very definitely fir the common perception of "working class" while being very different to, say, Boston, Lincolnshire or the Thames estuary.

Essentially - I am waffling but basically agreeing with you. The Working Class label as commonly used contains a set of contradictions as the label is so wide. Which is why sweeping statements about how the "white working class" is trending should rightfully be treated with suspicion.

(Also - could you not argue thar downwardly mobile asset poor young graduates in precious employment form a neo-working class of their own?)

[Kingpoleon]

https://twitter.com/TomBoadle/status/1027196810845216769?s=19


https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1027149853271437312?s=19

^^^ deeply depressing poll, I hate the face veil, I don't know why any women want to wear one,
but this is a free country, everyone should wear what they feel comfortable with,
I rarely ever come across women with a face veil, it's a total non issue, but most of the media are playing into the hands of Boris, by talking up the issue..

... And America’s the racist country?

[Slow Learner]

Boris is a vile creature and the fact he still has something of a career is very sad indeed.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

About the only women in the UK who wear burkas are Pashtun women - there are only around 100,000 Pashtuns in the entire country, they're pretty geographically concentrated, only half are female and not all Pashtun women wear them (including the most well known Pashtun in Britain, Malala Yousafzai). Most British people have never seen a woman wearing a burka except in television reports from Afghanistan. The niqab is different - it is something you will occasionally see (and because it's so striking you'll remember seeing it, something that often leads to a false impression of frequency), but is still rare.

Some concerns raised about this topic are sincere - Johnson's tediously grotesque bomb-throwing was not, of course (the fact that he is clearly not aware that burkhas do not have eye-slits is rather telling) - although, unfortunately, there's a tendency to confuse signifier and signified, to object to the visible manifestation of a certain set of problems rather than to the problems themselves. This means that even well-intentioned interventions are rarely helpful.

[King of Kensington]

Boris Johnson makes me think of what you'd get if Donald Trump and disgraced media baron Conrad Black had a baby.

[King of Kensington]

Remember this chart doing the rounds after the 2017 election? Some would say it's indicative... of something...

OK, accepting this line of argument is roughly true. But when people talk about the White Working Class, what's not usually meant is poor and deprived people, would you agree?
My impression of White Working Class is that the idea describes people who have something to lose, and are losing or fear they might lose it.
I think it has to include being White, Skilled manual workers or possibly non-professional service workers.
I think it may include people above low incomes, people with housing assets, self-employed people, non-members of a trade union, and even certain kinds of manager.
It probably doesn't include professionals or university graduates. Indeed, higher education might be the real phenomenon here.

The contradictions to the standard Marxian model of class struggle in democracy are why it's such an interesting category. It's certainly useful, but must be used with care. E.g., I think one would struggle to explain Brexitrump without this category.

I think what it boils down to, is a point that we've discussed before, in that in British class terminology, the "working class" label is so wide as to be entirely meaningless. It can include the sainsbury's security guard, the small town white van man, the call centre worker...who all have completely different lives, outlooks and voting habits. I mean in the above chart, Labour are winning in the 4th and 5th deciles, which is hardly "deprived" really. Likewise, those old colliery seats in Durham or South Wales very definitely fir the common perception of "working class" while being very different to, say, Boston, Lincolnshire or the Thames estuary.

Essentially - I am waffling but basically agreeing with you. The Working Class label as commonly used contains a set of contradictions as the label is so wide. Which is why sweeping statements about how the "white working class" is trending should rightfully be treated with suspicion.

(Also - could you not argue thar downwardly mobile asset poor young graduates in precious employment form a neo-working class of their own?)

The working class is indeed diverse and not all "deprived."

[Silent Hunter]

About the only women in the UK who wear burkas are Pashtun women - there are only around 100,000 Pashtuns in the entire country, they're pretty geographically concentrated, only half are female and not all Pashtun women wear them (including the most well known Pashtun in Britain, Malala Yousafzai). Most British people have never seen a woman wearing a burka except in television reports from Afghanistan. The niqab is different - it is something you will occasionally see (and because it's so striking you'll remember seeing it, something that often leads to a false impression of frequency), but is still rare.

Some concerns raised about this topic are sincere - Johnson's tediously grotesque bomb-throwing was not, of course (the fact that he is clearly not aware that burkhas do not have eye-slits is rather telling) - although, unfortunately, there's a tendency to confuse signifier and signified, to object to the visible manifestation of a certain set of problems rather than to the problems themselves. This means that even well-intentioned interventions are rarely helpful.

Here's how to tell the difference:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241

[Hnv1]

About the only women in the UK who wear burkas are Pashtun women - there are only around 100,000 Pashtuns in the entire country, they're pretty geographically concentrated, only half are female and not all Pashtun women wear them (including the most well known Pashtun in Britain, Malala Yousafzai). Most British people have never seen a woman wearing a burka except in television reports from Afghanistan. The niqab is different - it is something you will occasionally see (and because it's so striking you'll remember seeing it, something that often leads to a false impression of frequency), but is still rare.

Some concerns raised about this topic are sincere - Johnson's tediously grotesque bomb-throwing was not, of course (the fact that he is clearly not aware that burkhas do not have eye-slits is rather telling) - although, unfortunately, there's a tendency to confuse signifier and signified, to object to the visible manifestation of a certain set of problems rather than to the problems themselves. This means that even well-intentioned interventions are rarely helpful.

Here's how to tell the difference:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241

I've seen niqabs quite often in Tottenham or up north. I definitely saw it more in the UK than here in Muslim settlements.

Like in antisemitism the Pakistani community is 'leading' the way in backwardness

[Silent Hunter]

I currently work in Stratford, they're common there.

Are Jewish communities more "Jewish" outside Israel?

[Hnv1]

I currently work in Stratford, they're common there.

Are Jewish communities more "Jewish" outside Israel?

Most aren’t. There are pockets of hardcore haredi in NY/NJ/London but they’re not more hardcore than the hardcore here. Plus it’s different as Muslims emigrated to western countries and Jews lived there for quite a long time

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've seen niqabs quite often in Tottenham or up north. I definitely saw it more in the UK than here in Muslim settlements.

This reflects the influence of the Deobandi movement in the Pakistani community, at least at the level of formal organised religiosity. We're still talking a fairly small minority of people who wear niqabs, but say at little as five percent of Muslim women in a neighbourhood that is predominantly Muslim wear them will be very visually striking. And there's been an increase in both Deobandi influence and the wearing of very conservative dress in recent years... but at the same time only about half of British Muslims now live in majority Muslim neighbourhoods and those that don't are generally less conservative and much more integrated into wider society. Dispersal is happening but those who don't are becoming (at least on sight, which is where things get a little messy: e.g. more women wearing the niqab could also indicate women previously not allowed or not willing to leave the house doing so) more conservative.

[Pouring Rain and Blairing Music]

Boris Johnson makes me think of what you'd get if Donald Trump and disgraced media baron Conrad Black had a baby.

A friend of mine says that "Donald Trump is what you'd get if Ross Perot and George Wallace had a hate-child in a dumpster next to 4chan's main server cluster," which would make Johnson the grandson of Ross Perot and George Wallace. Sounds about right.

[EPG]

Umunna, well I didn't forecast that Corbyn would be leader six months before it happened, so let's not say never. He is young enough to wait.
Germany is probably better than the UK if you're a white man, but worse if you're a woman or a visible minority. Society still assumes there is a Frau waiting at home to look after Haus / Kinder. Visible minorities rarely prosper as everyone is meant to stay at their own social level. There is more equality in the middle, but being poor in Germany is still bad. Finally the attitude to raising children is far healthier in the UK - in Germany it's seen as a lifestyle choice, and often a poor choice at that.
The map is a good example of nice graphics, pity about the lack of data.

[Silent Hunter]

Several people injured in Westminister car crash, being treated as terrorism

[Kingpoleon]

I don’t think May or Cornyn will fall until the atmosphere is right for both of them to.