Ohio leg. passes 6-week abortion ban - VETOED by Kasich; 20-week bill signed

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

[Person Man]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

Probably. It would be great if these were his actual views, though....if he were actually moderate.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Banning abortion is doomed to fail...it's like prohibition.

Before Roe vs Wade...there were a million abortions done a year under the table. All banning abortion would do is move it back to those circumstances. And since we all know that no state would be willing to fully enforce jailing women who have abortions, just like with prohibition, then the ban is doomed to fail.

Never understood pro-lifers, their viewpoint on abortion is doomed to fail just like in every other country where abortion is banned

This argument only works if you presume, at least on some level, that there's nothing wrong with abortion. What it essentially boils down to is "Well, people will get abortions anyway, so we may as well help them do it safely." I could just as easily say "Well, people will murder each other anyway, so no since trying to stop them. Better that they do it out in the open where people can get help and defend themselves rather than in some back alley where people are defenseless." If you believe that abortion is murder, neither of these arguments make sense - because murder is a fundamentally wrong action. It's not about making it "rare". It's not about making it "safer". It's about doing everything we can to stop it. If we even save one life as a result of abortion prohibition, it's worth it. Because every human life is precious.

Furthermore, you assume that every woman out there who wants to get an abortion will stop at nothing to get it. That's obviously not true. Even leaving aside the natural inclination of the populace to follow the law out of fear of getting caught, the current situation is one in which women are quite frankly told this by pro-choice organizations, counselors, employers, doctors, and so on: "Well, you want that promotion, don't you? You want that high role in the military, don't you? You want lots of money for yourself, don't you? You don't have enough money for your child, do you? Well, get an abortion. It's legal, so it must be moral!!!!!!!!!". Women are told to not even think about whether it is moral, because it being legal makes it moral (logic that blows up when pro-choice people go on talk shows and tell people to not "legislate morality"), and to not even enter the child into their considerations, just think about themselves, themselves, themselves. With that sort of advice, it's not hard to see why you would resolve to get an abortion. In a world where abortion is illegal, counselors and doctors would never bring it up. A woman would express displeasure at being pregnant and simply be told "it's a fact of life". Abortion would only be promoted in whispered conversations, hardly the yuge-promotion-by-every-medium-possible it gets now. So it follows that abortion would become less common.

Furthermore, the idea of abortion taking place in some side street with no safety procedures is a myth created by the abortion industry. The term "back-alley abortion" actually meant that people would enter a doctor's, nurse's, or midwife's office to get an abortion through a door accessed through the back alley rather than through the front door, to avoid arousing suspicion from any hostile observers. No inherent bad medical practice is meant by the term.

http://afterabortion.org/2011/the-truth-about-back-alley-abortions/


--------------

Finally, I know what you're going to say. "Well, why not pass policies that reduce abortion without making it illegal!", to which my response is "Why is it that democrats only care about making abortion rare when boxed into a corner?". Aside from a few lines on NARAL's website about "supporting reducing the need for abortion", I've seen no evidence that democrats really even care that abortion is rare. The idea of abortion being rare was removed from the democratic platform in 2008. Bill Clinton coined the phrase "Safe, Legal, and Rare", but Hillary simply used "Safe and Legal", a language repeated by democrats across the country, including by NARAL itself at times. The word rare has disappeared. When Hillary defended the pro-choice position in a debate, it was all about "I don't want to make that decision for her". I never heard her describe birth control or sex education as something that could reduce the need for abortions, or even clearly say that reducing the need for abortions is important, then or at any other point in the campaign. Wait, don't tell me why. It's because you believe that what is developing in the womb is not a "human", or at least not a "person". That's where every single argument for abortion derives from, or at least what it needs to survive - the belief that we aren't dealing with a "proper" member of our species, when in fact we are in every respect.

[OSR stands with Israel]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

Yah cause the court does not respect the 10th amendment anymore

[RI]

Banning abortion is doomed to fail...it's like prohibition.

Before Roe vs Wade...there were a million abortions done a year under the table. All banning abortion would do is move it back to those circumstances. And since we all know that no state would be willing to fully enforce jailing women who have abortions, just like with prohibition, then the ban is doomed to fail.

Never understood pro-lifers, their viewpoint on abortion is doomed to fail just like in every other country where abortion is banned

Both of my parents are only alive because abortion was illegal in California until Reagan legalized it in 1967, four years after my father was born and seven after my mother. My father's mother was 17 when she gave birth to my father, and my mother's mother was 16. The latter has even told my mother that she'd have been aborted if it hadn't been illegal in 1960. Don't pretend banning abortion doesn't reduce it. That's horsesh**t.

[ApatheticAustrian]

if you believe abortion is murder, killing abortion doctors in the act is a good deed.

if you believe that to be true - be my guest but then all those abortion foes are much too nice to abortion supporters like myself, which is why i call their argument bogus.

[Devout Centrist]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

We can only hope.

But pandering? Kasich is as pro life as I am pro choice.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

We can only hope.

But pandering? Kasich is as pro life as I am pro choice.

I don't believe is is so pro-life he doesn't see this as a horrible horrible bill.  If he was so pro life he would have signed the heartbeat bill.   He took the middle ground to keep his base happy.

[Devout Centrist]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

We can only hope.

But pandering? Kasich is as pro life as I am pro choice.

I don't believe is is so pro-life he doesn't see this as a horrible horrible bill.  If he was so pro life he would have signed the heartbeat bill.   He took the middle ground to keep his base happy.

Well you could argue that, but he signed this because it's much more likely to be upheld versus the heartbeat bill. And if it's upheld, Roe v. Wade is dead.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

We can only hope.

But pandering? Kasich is as pro life as I am pro choice.

I don't believe is is so pro-life he doesn't see this as a horrible horrible bill.  If he was so pro life he would have signed the heartbeat bill.   He took the middle ground to keep his base happy.

Well you could argue that, but he signed this because it's much more likely to be upheld versus the heartbeat bill. And if it's upheld, Roe v. Wade is dead.

Honestly, I don't think it will be upheld......but hey, who expected what's happened in the last 40 days?

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

if you believe abortion is murder, killing abortion doctors in the act is a good deed.

if you believe that to be true - be my guest but then all those abortion foes are much too nice to abortion supporters like myself, which is why i call their argument bogus.

Because a large portion of the pro-life movement understands that just screaming "BIGOT!!!!" until people agree with you is not how you actually grow a movement.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

We can only hope.

But pandering? Kasich is as pro life as I am pro choice.

I don't believe is is so pro-life he doesn't see this as a horrible horrible bill.  If he was so pro life he would have signed the heartbeat bill.   He took the middle ground to keep his base happy.

Well you could argue that, but he signed this because it's much more likely to be upheld versus the heartbeat bill. And if it's upheld, Roe v. Wade is dead.

Courts have already upheld 20-week bans, and SCOTUS declined to take up the case when they did.

[Xing]

if you believe abortion is murder, killing abortion doctors in the act is a good deed.

if you believe that to be true - be my guest but then all those abortion foes are much too nice to abortion supporters like myself, which is why i call their argument bogus.

Because a large portion of the pro-life movement understands that just screaming "BIGOT!!!!" until people agree with you is not how you actually grow a movement.

Funny, that seems to be exactly how pro-lifers approach the debate, albeit "BABY MURDERER!!!!" instead of "bigot". And I'd respond to your comment about Democrats only talking about making abortion rarer when backed into a corner by saying that I've mentioned support for finding ways to reduce the need for abortion several times. Yes, reducing abortion isn't going to fully satisfy hardline pro-lifers, but no solution is going to fully satisfy both sides, so why not go for something that is at least palatable to pro-choicers, and better than the status quo for pro-lifers.

[Simfan34]

66% of Americans agree with a twenty week ban. Let's not pretend this is some radical position to take.

[Person Man]

66% of Americans agree with a twenty week ban. Let's not pretend this is some radical position to take.

They also agree with exceptions.

[ApatheticAustrian]

66% of Americans agree with a twenty week ban. Let's not pretend this is some radical position to take.

depends on state and exceptions, i guess.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

if you believe abortion is murder, killing abortion doctors in the act is a good deed.

if you believe that to be true - be my guest but then all those abortion foes are much too nice to abortion supporters like myself, which is why i call their argument bogus.

Nah, we'd much rather live under a consistent ethic of life. No murderer deserves death. The only way to do it successfully is through legal means.

[ApatheticAustrian]

if you believe abortion is murder, killing abortion doctors in the act is a good deed.

if you believe that to be true - be my guest but then all those abortion foes are much too nice to abortion supporters like myself, which is why i call their argument bogus.

Nah, we'd much rather live under a consistent ethic of life. No murderer deserves death. The only way to do it successfully is through legal means.

this is a worldview i can philosophically support.

support unborn.

support born.

only god is allowed to give and take lives.

[Cashew]

if you believe abortion is murder, killing abortion doctors in the act is a good deed.

if you believe that to be true - be my guest but then all those abortion foes are much too nice to abortion supporters like myself, which is why i call their argument bogus.

Nah, we'd much rather live under a consistent ethic of life. No murderer deserves death. The only way to do it successfully is through legal means.

The problem is that what passes for conservatism in America is incompatible with that.

[Tartarus Sauce]

if you believe abortion is murder, killing abortion doctors in the act is a good deed.

if you believe that to be true - be my guest but then all those abortion foes are much too nice to abortion supporters like myself, which is why i call their argument bogus.

Because a large portion of the pro-life movement understands that just screaming "BIGOT!!!!" until people agree with you is not how you actually grow a movement.

No, instead they make some of the most blatant appeals to emotion of any political movement and scream "BABY BUTCHERING" while portraying the horrors of partial birth abortions when they make up a ridiculously small fraction of a percentage of actual abortions. Don't pretend that the pro-life movement doesn't have its own problems with labeling and narrative distortion that it intentionally perpetuates.

I wouldn't exactly say its a growing movement either, public opinion has been mostly at a standstill on the abortion debate for the past several decades. What's been more fluid is the nuance in attitudes regarding abortion. The greatest disservice the pro-life and pro-choice movements have done regarding the abortion issue is to paint it in such binary terms.

[MarkD]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

Yah cause the court does not respect the 10th amendment anymore

The problem is not with how the Court does or does not understand or respect the 10th. The problem is with how broadly they interpret the 14th Amendment.
Section 1 of the 14th Amendment needs to be rewritten to make its meaning narrower and clearer, so states have a clear understanding of what they cannot do, and so that the federal courts have far less discretion in choosing which laws to strike down.
Roe v. Wade was upheld (and significantly altered) in the case of Planned Parenthood v. Casey. In the latter case, the Court proclaimed "Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code. The first part of that statement is absolutely wrong, and thus the second part is hypocritical. We need a constitutional amendment to be adopted that tells the Court "Oh no, you don't! You do not have that 'obligation;' you do not even have the prerogative to define liberty!"
To repeat myself, if we adopt a new constitutional amendment that rewrites Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, we can make the rules about what states cannot do much more precise, and doing so we can take back the power to make laws where it belongs, in the hands of the legislatures (and voters).

[OSR stands with Israel]

This one won't last long when the higher courts get it, but Kasich is simply a pandering dick.

Yah cause the court does not respect the 10th amendment anymore

The problem is not with how the Court does or does not understand or respect the 10th. The problem is with how broadly they interpret the 14th Amendment.
Section 1 of the 14th Amendment needs to be rewritten to make its meaning narrower and clearer, so states have a clear understanding of what they cannot do, and so that the federal courts have far less discretion in choosing which laws to strike down.
Roe v. Wade was upheld (and significantly altered) in the case of Planned Parenthood v. Casey. In the latter case, the Court proclaimed "Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code. The first part of that statement is absolutely wrong, and thus the second part is hypocritical. We need a constitutional amendment to be adopted that tells the Court "Oh no, you don't! You do not have that 'obligation;' you do not even have the prerogative to define liberty!"
To repeat myself, if we adopt a new constitutional amendment that rewrites Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, we can make the rules about what states cannot do much more precise, and doing so we can take back the power to make laws where it belongs, in the hands of the legislatures (and voters).

All roe vs Wade said is you can't ban abortion , restricting it after 20 weeks is not banning its just regulating it.

[KingSweden]

Should note Ohio already bans abortion at fetal viability, so this basically narrows the window by 4-6 weeks

Personally, I think expanding birth control access is the best way to limit abortions, but that's just me

[Devout Centrist]

Banning abortion is doomed to fail...it's like prohibition.

Before Roe vs Wade...there were a million abortions done a year under the table. All banning abortion would do is move it back to those circumstances. And since we all know that no state would be willing to fully enforce jailing women who have abortions, just like with prohibition, then the ban is doomed to fail.

Never understood pro-lifers, their viewpoint on abortion is doomed to fail just like in every other country where abortion is banned

Both of my parents are only alive because abortion was illegal in California until Reagan legalized it in 1967, four years after my father was born and seven after my mother. My father's mother was 17 when she gave birth to my father, and my mother's mother was 16. The latter has even told my mother that she'd have been aborted if it hadn't been illegal in 1960. Don't pretend banning abortion doesn't reduce it. That's horsesh**t.

Anecdotes don't equal reality, especially if you look at Central America and the Middle East.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Banning abortion is doomed to fail...it's like prohibition.

Before Roe vs Wade...there were a million abortions done a year under the table. All banning abortion would do is move it back to those circumstances. And since we all know that no state would be willing to fully enforce jailing women who have abortions, just like with prohibition, then the ban is doomed to fail.

Never understood pro-lifers, their viewpoint on abortion is doomed to fail just like in every other country where abortion is banned

Both of my parents are only alive because abortion was illegal in California until Reagan legalized it in 1967, four years after my father was born and seven after my mother. My father's mother was 17 when she gave birth to my father, and my mother's mother was 16. The latter has even told my mother that she'd have been aborted if it hadn't been illegal in 1960. Don't pretend banning abortion doesn't reduce it. That's horsesh**t.

Making drugs illegal dosent stop people from using them
Making prostitution dosent stop people from doing it
Making guns illegal dosent stop people from buying them

What makes you think outlawing abortion will stop abortion? If you ever bothered to read the entire Roe v Wade Supreme Court statement, you'd realize this was a major reason for their decision: there is no way to stop abortion so you might as well make it legal and safe

Making bank robbing illegal doesn't stop people from robbing banks
Making polygamy illegal doesn't stop people from getting a polygamous marriage in secret
Making murder illegal doesn't stop devoted murderers

Well, we may as well not have any laws at all!!!!