Do you agree with my view on Islam?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

well?

[Ebowed]

What is your view, exactly?  That it sucks?  I voted yes, but there may be some reservations because I don't know your exact opinion.

[Lunar]

Hell no.

Too lazy to elaborate at this moment in time.

[TomC]

I sometimes get the feeling that BRTD thinks we read every word of his and retain it, as if we could possibly keep up with every bit of info in this forum.

[TheWildCard]

I sometimes get the feeling that BRTD thinks we read every word of his and retain it, as if we could possibly keep up with every bit of info in this forum.

He thinks we're all just obssessed with him and we've looked up his stance on every issue!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

OK, summarized:

it sucks
it's not a religion of peace
Islam at its root is anti-democratic and Islamic societies can not be succesful and compatible with democracy unless the Islam is restrained by severe force

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I sometimes get the feeling that BRTD thinks we read every word of his and retain it, as if we could possibly keep up with every bit of info in this forum.

He thinks we're all just obssessed with him and we've looked up his stance on every issue!

I've been pretty vocal on this issue, it's not like I've only mentioned it once in an obscurish thread. It's like StatesRights asking if you agree with his view on Abraham Lincoln, you don't need to keep track of all his posts to know what it is.

[TheWildCard]

I sometimes get the feeling that BRTD thinks we read every word of his and retain it, as if we could possibly keep up with every bit of info in this forum.

He thinks we're all just obssessed with him and we've looked up his stance on every issue!

I've been pretty vocal on this issue, it's not like I've only mentioned it once in an obscurish thread. It's like StatesRights asking if you agree with his view on Abraham Lincoln, you don't need to keep track of all his posts to know what it is.

True, but there are those of us who don't pay much attention to religious debate but do look at debates about Presidents etc.

Plus I'd say States not liking Lincoln is more similar to your dislike to LBJ.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

well I talk about Islam as a political issue.

Also I imagine if I asked "do you agree with me on good looking female communists?" everyone would know what I was talking about

[TomC]

Then be a conscientious forum poster and link us to it rather than argue with us. I mean, do you think we're lying about not knowing it?

[Frodo]

OK, summarized:

it sucks
it's not a religion of peace
Islam at its root is anti-democratic and Islamic societies can not be succesful and compatible with democracy unless the Islam is restrained by severe force

then clearly i disagree with your point of view.  while i agree that Islam needs reform, i do not believe that it is any less likely to accomodate democratic change throughout the Middle East than Christianity was when democratic revolutions erupted throughout Europe and North America in the late 18th and early to mid 19th centuries. it just needs time.   

yours is a prescription for hopelessness and disaster for our prospects of fomenting democratic change throughout the Islamic world, especially in the Middle East and North Africa.  it begs the question on why we should even bother.  as such, i do not accept it.

what do you think should be the ultimate objective of our current War on Terrorism if not to 'drain the swamp' of Islamic extremism in whose stale and brackish pools the pestilence of Islamic terrorism dwells, by fomenting democratic change throughout the Islamic World?

it is absolutely necessary and unavoidable for our security, and that of the rest of the world, to see to it that Muslims take the initiative in creating a democratic civil society in the Islamic world -and we cannot do it without respecting and accomodating Islam to the prospect of democratic change.

[TomC]

I agree with frodo.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The way to restrain Islam is by imposed secularism. Egypt is a good example. The Shah's Iran was another good example, and we all saw what happened when he was overthrown.

Saddam is an example of how to do it the wrong way. He was so brutal in trying to impose his secularism that he simply fed the Islamic extremism, and that is why now Iraq is heading down the path to becoming yet another Iran judging by the election results. Another 5-10 years and we'll be talking about Ali Sistani as the theocratic dictator of Iraq. What the Middle East needs is more people like Ataturk (minus the ultra-nationalism and genocide) and Anwar Sadat.

and no I don't think any of you were lying, I'm just suprised you weren't already familiar.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The way to restrain Islam is by imposed secularism.

Which usally results in a growth of fundamentalism

[John Dibble]

The way to restrain Islam is by imposed secularism.

Which usally results in a growth of fundamentalism

Quite right - for every action there is a reaction. Not quite the same as in physics, but imposing secularism tends to make fundamentalists stronger in resolve and numbers.

Gradual reform is what is needed - and that takes time, patience, and forethought. There is no magic bullet that will solve the problems in the Islamic community overnight.

"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

[Ebowed]

OK, summarized:

it sucks
it's not a religion of peace
Islam at its root is anti-democratic and Islamic societies can not be succesful and compatible with democracy unless the Islam is restrained by severe force

Ah, then I definitely agree.  I don't think Islam needs reform really, it's beyond saving.

[John Dibble]

OK, summarized:

it sucks
it's not a religion of peace
Islam at its root is anti-democratic and Islamic societies can not be succesful and compatible with democracy unless the Islam is restrained by severe force

Ah, then I definitely agree.  I don't think Islam needs reform really, it's beyond saving.

I see more hope for Islam than I do for communism. (this is just to piss off one particular member, even if it's the truth)

[Gabu]

No.

Islam is roughly 400 years younger than Christianity.  400 years ago, righteous Christians were burning heretics at the stake.  400 years later, here we are.  I see no reason why Islam could not do the same.  And no, don't give me that line of "Islam requires complete belief and compliance with everything in the Qu'ran so it can never be reformed."  A religion is what its followers make of it.  People who give that line act as if the same was not also true of Christianity 400 years ago.

Of course it doesn't look like it's going anywhere today, because it's an extremely gradual process - as every major change tends to be.  Totalitarianism cannot survive forever; dictators die eventually and are replaced, and if just one person who takes over has the slightest inkling that the people deserve better, that could be all that it takes.  Recent events in the Middle East lead me to believe that the people there genuinely want better, and even if Iraq ends up failing because they're not ready yet, I see no reason why that feeling will go away.

[Ebowed]

Actually 600 years, not 400.. not that it's a big deal, just so you know

[dazzleman]

I take a fairly dim view of Islam, and have admitted to a certain level of involuntary prejudice against Muslims.

But I don't agree with your view that it's necessarily bad.

A more modern way of thinking, coupled with a more liberal interpretation of the Koran, could make Islam a perfectly acceptable religion.

Fundamentalist Islam represents that international application of the "blame other people for your problems" philosophy that we have seen in our own domestic debates.  It is indicative of a failure by people to accept any responsibility for their own lives, and a need to blame other people for the results of their failure to improve their lives.

The problem with Islam is not so much the religion, but the application of it, and its use as a tool to blame external forces for unhappiness with your own life.

[opebo]

I agree with you BRTD, Islam is an awful phenomenon.  I think the same about all religion.

[phk]

Modernizing Islam would be like modernizing slavery of Africans. Abandonment of religion is a mark of an advanced society.

As far as the ideological battle against Islam and exposing the foundations of this religion are concerned, for a free-minded human being, religion is part of the 'lumpenism' in society, which must be put aside.

If this struggle is taking place now, it is thanks to communists like me, and even that is limited to what is available to a political organisation.

In Iran, we do not have a large-scale social and national movement of enlightened intellectuals loudly proclaiming, 'we do not have a religion; we are atheists,' whereas Europe was full of intellectual giants who stood up to the powerful church and expressed their views, which is how Christianity became modernized. Through standing up to it.

Why are you guys paving the way for historically backward monsters to continue their existence in new forms?

[Hitchabrut]

On fundemantalist Islam, yes, but I happen to have closer views to Islam than to you.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The way to restrain Islam is by imposed secularism.

Which usally results in a growth of fundamentalism

didn't in Turkey after Ataturk (even though all that nationalist genocide obviously wasn't a good thing) and it's gotten under control in Egypt.

[John Dibble]

The way to restrain Islam is by imposed secularism.

Which usally results in a growth of fundamentalism

didn't in Turkey after Ataturk (even though all that nationalist genocide obviously wasn't a good thing) and it's gotten under control in Egypt.

So why didn't it work in Iran then?

My opinion is that the Muslims in Turkey and Egypt were reformed enough to accept it, but not the same in Iran.