Ukraine Crisis
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 30, 2024, 06:59:00 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Ukraine Crisis
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 26 27 28 29 30 [31] 32 33 34 35 36 ... 72
Author Topic: Ukraine Crisis  (Read 235552 times)
MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,380


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #750 on: March 04, 2014, 06:35:12 AM »

...

...

Seriously.

This is not 1938 nor 1939. I'm sick and tired of that extremely hyperbolic analogy, as I can hear it every day from my native nutjobs.

We live in the atomic age. That's why there never was a direct conflict between the West and the East. There were numerous crises, but come on, Ukraine, when compared to the Cuban Missile Crisis or Berlin standoff, is a storm in a teacup.

Russia is not going to attack NATO territory, NATO is not going to attack Russia. You may want this, but it ain't happening.

Putin is no Hitler, he doesn't look for a lebensraum to conquer.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,224
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #751 on: March 04, 2014, 07:06:26 AM »
« Edited: March 04, 2014, 09:01:11 AM by Strategos Autokrator »

Putin gave a surreal press conference today. His statements in short:

- At present, there's no need for a Russian military intervention in Ukraine. It will only be used as a last resort.

- There's currently no Russian military intervention in Crimea. Only "local self-defence forces" are active there.

- The protestors on the Maidan have legitimate grievances and Viktor Yanukovych has no political future.

- The current Ukrainian government came to power through a coup and is hence illegitimate. The Ukrainian parliament is a legitimate institution which is recognized by Russia, but the Yatsenyuk government isn't.

- Russia is and will always be friends with Ukraine. But Russia won't have relations with its current government.

- Russia is continuing preparations for the G8 Summit in Sochi, but nobody should feel forced to attend.


One could say Putin seems confused, except that he's probably acting confused on purpose.
Logged
windjammer
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,514
France


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #752 on: March 04, 2014, 07:29:00 AM »

An interesting french article about Ukraine.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #753 on: March 04, 2014, 08:21:58 AM »

The interesting poll in Crimea would be three choices: autonomous state in Ukraine, autonomous state in Russia, or full independence.

An "independent" state of Crimea would be such a puppet joke, it shouldn't be considered.

In addition, "independent Crimea" would mean a million displaced persons: the local economy will simply not be able to support much more than half the current population (no water, no tourists). It only makes sense as part of a bigger project.
Logged
MasterJedi
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,656
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #754 on: March 04, 2014, 08:34:43 AM »

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?
Logged
Snowstalker Mk. II
Snowstalker
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,414
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -7.10, S: -4.35

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #755 on: March 04, 2014, 08:41:55 AM »

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

...
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #756 on: March 04, 2014, 08:43:35 AM »
« Edited: March 04, 2014, 08:47:02 AM by ag »

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

At least, have big troop concentrations on the LOC. Both in Georgia and in Moldova. Do not cross the lines, for the moment - do so only if Russians move into mainland Ukraine. But make sure that the Russians have to think about defending those.

I would also do the same in the Far East with the "Northern Territories": make the Japanese concentrate a lot on Hokkaido, run big war games simulating landings on some islands. Basically, make the Russians disperse troops all over the country, in expectation that they MAY be attacked.
Logged
Yeahsayyeah
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 790


Political Matrix
E: -9.25, S: -8.15

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #757 on: March 04, 2014, 08:51:17 AM »

I hope, the warmongering in this thread is not representative for anyone. It would be worse than the current Russian 19th century imperialist acting that is going on.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #758 on: March 04, 2014, 08:55:05 AM »

I hope, the warmongering in this thread is not representative for anyone. It would be worse than the current Russian 19th century imperialist acting that is going on.

Appeasement is a lot more dangerous: if your objective is truly to avoid the war.
Logged
Franknburger
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,401
Germany


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #759 on: March 04, 2014, 08:57:35 AM »

Putin is no Hitler, he doesn't look for a lebensraum to conquer.
Correct. But the "Heim ins Reich" rhetoric still sounds unpleasantly familiar.

At the moment, it seems Putin has been sending a clear signal to the West to stop ignoring legitimate Russian interests. The form is obviously inappropriate, and the occasion anything but well chosen. Backing up a corrupt crook like Yanukovich hasn't really been helpful to ensure Ukraine will pay their gas bill, while the military intervention may actually lead to more instead of less discrimination of Russian-speakers in Ukraine and other countries. But Putin's statements today have made me a little more optimistic that ultimately a diplomatic solution can be found.
Logged
Zanas
Zanas46
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,947
France


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #760 on: March 04, 2014, 08:59:26 AM »

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

At least, have big troop concentrations on the LOC. Both in Georgia and in Moldova. Do not cross the lines, for the moment - do so only if Russians move into mainland Ukraine. But make sure that the Russians have to think about defending those.

I would also do the same in the Far East with the "Northern Territories": make the Japanese concentrate a lot on Hokkaido, run big war games simulating landings on some islands. Basically, make the Russians disperse troops all over the country, in expectation that they MAY be attacked.
This is not Risk. Get real.
Logged
MasterJedi
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,656
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #761 on: March 04, 2014, 09:01:52 AM »

Want to get China on our side? Promise them all of Siberia if they would side with us against Russia if it were to actually come to anything. If it was the US/Europe/China/Japan agianst Russia they would probably be more likely to back down.

Offer to just let Russia keep Crimea, most of the citizens want it and allow the ones that don't to leave in peace, but Russia shouldn't be allowed to take half the country or more, which is what they want.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #762 on: March 04, 2014, 09:05:53 AM »

Putin is no Hitler, he doesn't look for a lebensraum to conquer.
Correct. But the "Heim ins Reich" rhetoric still sounds unpleasantly familiar.

At the moment, it seems Putin has been sending a clear signal to the West to stop ignoring legitimate Russian interests. The form is obviously inappropriate, and the occasion anything but well chosen. Backing up a corrupt crook like Yanukovich hasn't really been helpful to ensure Ukraine will pay their gas bill, while the military intervention may actually lead to more instead of less discrimination of Russian-speakers in Ukraine and other countries. But Putin's statements today have made me a little more optimistic that ultimately a diplomatic solution can be found.


Reread the pre-war German statements, before you become too optimistic.

And then compare your own to those of Chamberlain.

Legitimate grievances be freaked... Germany's were a lot more legitimate.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #763 on: March 04, 2014, 09:07:27 AM »

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

At least, have big troop concentrations on the LOC. Both in Georgia and in Moldova. Do not cross the lines, for the moment - do so only if Russians move into mainland Ukraine. But make sure that the Russians have to think about defending those.

I would also do the same in the Far East with the "Northern Territories": make the Japanese concentrate a lot on Hokkaido, run big war games simulating landings on some islands. Basically, make the Russians disperse troops all over the country, in expectation that they MAY be attacked.
This is not Risk. Get real.

I am real. I know none of this will be done. This is why I am very pessimistic about the future. I guess, I should travel more around Europe in the next few years, while it still exists.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #764 on: March 04, 2014, 09:08:31 AM »

Want to get China on our side? Promise them all of Siberia if they would side with us against Russia if it were to actually come to anything. If it was the US/Europe/China/Japan agianst Russia they would probably be more likely to back down.

Offer to just let Russia keep Crimea, most of the citizens want it and allow the ones that don't to leave in peace, but Russia shouldn't be allowed to take half the country or more, which is what they want.

Today Crimea, tomorrow Berlin. Just remember that.
Logged
Yeahsayyeah
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 790


Political Matrix
E: -9.25, S: -8.15

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #765 on: March 04, 2014, 09:08:55 AM »

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?
Despite that in 2008 Georgia was the agressor and the land was not controlled by Georgian government, anyway.
Logged
muon2
Moderators
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,798


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #766 on: March 04, 2014, 09:14:58 AM »


And the United States is supposed to take action to defend the capricious border changes set by Nikolai Khrushchev?

You swore in a treaty to do this - in exchange for taking Ukrainian nukes. Do not want to do it? Give back the nukes.

Actually I checked and don't believe action, beyond consultation with the signatories, is mandated. Here are the terms of the Budapest Memorandum:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Only point 6 is specifically applicable here. Other actions would have to be based on the CSCE agreement or the UN charter.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #767 on: March 04, 2014, 09:17:04 AM »
« Edited: March 04, 2014, 09:38:47 AM by ag »

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?
Despite that in 2008 Georgia was the agressor and the land was not controlled by Georgian government, anyway.

A lot of it (half the Southern Ossetia and the Kodori gorge in Abkhazia) was Georgian populated and Georgian controlled before 2008. The inconvenient fact is that the Georgian population was half massacred and half expelled at the time (we might as well forget that before the Soviet break up there had been about 2.5 times as many Georgians as the Abkhaz in Abkhazia - they had been expelled long ago, with the help of different Russian troops).  In any case, Georgians did not do exceptionally badly: most Ossetians also had to leave from under the Russian protection: the country is not suitable for human habitation at this point. Have you seen recent reports from the area? From the Soviet 100 thousand residents of SO, or pre-2008 70 thousand, the population is now down to somewhere between 20 and 40 thousand. Abkhazia is only marginally better. And, in a warning to Crimea, it was one of the main Soviet resorts.

Anyway, no doubt, in 2020, when 1,000,000 people have been forced to leave the Russian-occupied Crimea, you will be vaguely recalling that the true aggressors were the Ukrainians.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #768 on: March 04, 2014, 09:18:19 AM »

Anyway, from now on I am on record as an enthusiastic supporter of nuclear proliferation. That is the only thing that can preserve peace at this point.
Logged
Yeahsayyeah
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 790


Political Matrix
E: -9.25, S: -8.15

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #769 on: March 04, 2014, 09:21:00 AM »

Want to get China on our side? Promise them all of Siberia if they would side with us against Russia if it were to actually come to anything. If it was the US/Europe/China/Japan agianst Russia they would probably be more likely to back down.

Offer to just let Russia keep Crimea, most of the citizens want it and allow the ones that don't to leave in peace, but Russia shouldn't be allowed to take half the country or more, which is what they want.

Today Crimea, tomorrow Berlin. Just remember that.
Have you ever heard of this obscure tiny organization called NATO, that Germany is a member of?
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #770 on: March 04, 2014, 09:27:06 AM »
« Edited: March 04, 2014, 09:29:52 AM by ag »

Want to get China on our side? Promise them all of Siberia if they would side with us against Russia if it were to actually come to anything. If it was the US/Europe/China/Japan agianst Russia they would probably be more likely to back down.

Offer to just let Russia keep Crimea, most of the citizens want it and allow the ones that don't to leave in peace, but Russia shouldn't be allowed to take half the country or more, which is what they want.


Today Crimea, tomorrow Berlin. Just remember that.
Have you ever heard of this obscure tiny organization called NATO, that Germany is a member of?

Well, all that it means is that rather than occupied, Berlin will be nuked.

I am dead serious. You think NATO will work. NATO has never been tested. By letting Putin get away with murder this time, you make him hungry to, in fact, try it out. And even if it turns out it is serious, it will be too late by the time we find this out: nukes will be falling.
Logged
Snowstalker Mk. II
Snowstalker
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,414
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -7.10, S: -4.35

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #771 on: March 04, 2014, 09:36:24 AM »

You need help.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #772 on: March 04, 2014, 09:37:29 AM »


Well, I will not be the one nuked Smiley
Logged
Snowstalker Mk. II
Snowstalker
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,414
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -7.10, S: -4.35

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #773 on: March 04, 2014, 09:40:40 AM »


I'm an hour and a half away from the nearest Russian target (Philadelphia) if the worst comes. Tongue
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #774 on: March 04, 2014, 09:45:57 AM »


I'm an hour and a half away from the nearest Russian target (Philadelphia) if the worst comes. Tongue

Good. So you are safe as well Smiley Anyway, knowing your views, you, probably, wouldn't mind being the Russian gauleiter in the area Smiley
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 26 27 28 29 30 [31] 32 33 34 35 36 ... 72  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.066 seconds with 10 queries.