Opinion of Martin Luther

[Peeperkorn]

Not as awesome as John Calvin

What's wrong with you?

He's a Calvinist like me.

Contemporary kind-of-calvinism-influenced christianism =/= John Calvin.

[DINGO Joe]

FF, though as his health deteriorated, he became quite unpleasant and may have bordered on dementia.

[Miles]

Massive HP and one of the most destructive figures in history.

(Catholic)

[Franzl]

A relative FF, as Reformation needed to happen. (Catholic)

Although "faith alone" has been terribly abused. Just think about a particular forum member...

[DC Al Fine]

Not as awesome as John Calvin

What's wrong with you?

He's a Calvinist like me.

Contemporary kind-of-calvinism-influenced christianism =/= John Calvin.

I'm an orthodox Calvinist.

[ZuWo]

Overall positive but I disappove of Luther's (and other reformers') stance on "anabaptists".

[windjammer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion

Well, he just destroyed my country. So I suppose it's obvious I don't like him?

[Cassius]

Awful HP. The extent of the corruption within the late medieval Church has always been exaggerated, both by some historians and Protestant propagandists (who were/are often one and the same). Corruption certainly did exist, but by far its worst excesses were generally confined to the high ranking clergy rather than the rank and file. Also, it is often forgotten that even before the emergence of Luther as an important figure there were already movements for reform within the Church itself, or from members of the laity (in England, Bishop John Fisher and Sir Thomas More spring to mind).

Essentially, Martin Luther ensured that Christians would spend the next 400 years fighting each other. Also, Look at the CofE, an institution that is probably more responsible than any other for the decline in faith in the United Kingdom. Whilst in terms of doctrine its not strongly Lutheran, its very survival into the 20th century is largely curtesy of Luther's ideas.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Massive HP and one of the most destructive figures in history.

[CatoMinor]

Why are so many pinning all the destruction that followed the Reformation on Luther and labeling him a HP? His intentions were initially to just have open debate on reform within the Church, but how the upper level leadership responded is what turned what would have been a debate into a schism. It is not as if the his Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences was nailed to the door in Wittenburg with him thinking "I sure hope we get a Peasant's Revolt, a 30 Year's War, and a French War of Religions out of this!"

[John Dibble]

Martin Luther's struggles were to get his religious beliefs to become the ruling ones and not for the sake of freedom. The man wanted to banish Catholics who kept their faith and he had downright hatred for Jews.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Most of the really awful stuff he wrote about Jews was much later in his life when he was believed to have dementia, plus all the stress of the past couple decades caused with the fact he no doubt had some mental illness early on. It's still the reason I'm not a huge fan of the guy. Zwingli was a much better Reformer.

[Cassius]

Why are so many pinning all the destruction that followed the Reformation on Luther and labeling him a HP? His intentions were initially to just have open debate on reform within the Church, but how the upper level leadership responded is what turned what would have been a debate into a schism. It is not as if the his Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences was nailed to the door in Wittenburg with him thinking "I sure hope we get a Peasant's Revolt, a 30 Year's War, and a French War of Religions out of this!"

Yes, but unlike people like the aforementioned Sir Thomas More, who were unhappy about some aspects of the Church but stayed in it to try and reform it, Luther, despite the fact that he was one incosequential priest, threw a hissy fit when the man dubbed as God's representative on Earth failed to react to his demands for reform. Maybe if Luther had stayed within the Church he would have been an effective reformer. But alas, he did not, and it is thanks to his arrogance that the peasants revolt and the wars of religion occurred. The most troubling thing of all is that the Counter-reformation that was to follow essentially made all of this totally pointless.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Since in the modern day I'm a much bigger fan of people who schism and start their own churches and denominations and movements than people who try to reform the ones they were born into it'd be kind of hypocritical of me to favor More's approach over Luther's.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Since in the modern day I'm a much bigger fan of people who schism and start their own churches and denominations and movements than people who try to reform the ones they were born into it'd be kind of hypocritical of me to favor More's approach over Luther's.

...why...why in the world would any Christian prefer, in principle, schism to reform of existing bodies?

Not even Luther PREFERRED schism in that sense.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Most certainly a freedom fighter

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Since in the modern day I'm a much bigger fan of people who schism and start their own churches and denominations and movements than people who try to reform the ones they were born into it'd be kind of hypocritical of me to favor More's approach over Luther's.

...why...why in the world would any Christian prefer, in principle, schism to reform of existing bodies?

Not even Luther PREFERRED schism in that sense.

I'll admit that this is a pretty 21st Century-centric view in a context only possible because of Luther's schism, but it kind of ties into my view that leaving the denomination you're born into because of disagreements IS a noble thing to do, especially since options can be quite limited otherwise. For example a woman who wants to a be a priest simply can not be one if she's a Catholic (or pastor in a complimentarian Protestant church) so becoming an Episcopalian or egalitarian denomination Protestant in that case is the right thing to do. Also there's going to be some doctrinal issues where there will always be disagreement and in that case "reforming" the church to your views just means excluding another group, credobaptism vs. paedobaptism is the easiest example. In those cases schism is pretty needed. My main thing is that one should not feel as if they are obligated to remain in whatever they're born into for that reason alone and if it's clear reform isn't going to work, leave. And I'm kind of a "religious capitalist" in that I support a "free market" of hordes of churches for one to pick from if they're interested and more choice in that sense is never a bad thing.

Despite all that though, the main thing to me is being uncomfortable with any idea of a Pope/papacy, so in that case as long as that leads the RCC, schism's the only option.

[Hifly]

Mega, Mega FF. He had the courage to stand up to the Catholic regime.

And Thank You for remembering Reformationstag!

[ZuWo]

Zwingli was a much better Reformer.

Despite his important achievements Zwingli - a reformer, politician and commander - has blood on his hands, too. In fact, he used his political influence to push for the the execution of prominent anabaptists. The following memorial plaque is located not far away from where I live and commemorates the "heretics" that were drowned in the river Limmat:

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Despite all that though, the main thing to me is being uncomfortable with any idea of a Pope/papacy, so in that case as long as that leads the RCC, schism's the only option.

...you do know who appointed the first Pope, right?

[DemPGH]

Despite all that though, the main thing to me is being uncomfortable with any idea of a Pope/papacy, so in that case as long as that leads the RCC, schism's the only option.

...you do know who appointed the first Pope, right?

Most likely Leo I in the middle 400s. Which of course was long after the supposed fact.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Despite all that though, the main thing to me is being uncomfortable with any idea of a Pope/papacy, so in that case as long as that leads the RCC, schism's the only option.

...you do know who appointed the first Pope, right?

No I don't. I doubt anyone today can determine that.

[TDAS04]

FF.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Despite all that though, the main thing to me is being uncomfortable with any idea of a Pope/papacy, so in that case as long as that leads the RCC, schism's the only option.

...you do know who appointed the first Pope, right?

Yes, Peter.

[Antonio the Sixth]

A clear improvement over that time's Catholic church.