Senate Bill: Fix the Regions Amendment (Rejected)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Aw just one. You cannot offer amendments yet.


I think Tmth should have the honors, since it is his amendment that would be withdrawn in favor of it.

[President Tyrion]

Aw just one. You cannot offer amendments yet.


I think Tmth should have the honors, since it is his amendment that would be withdrawn in favor of it.

Haha, I know, but I know one of y'all would just sponsor it anyway, so I was banking on that.

[tmthforu94]

I have been working hard all night on this - hours upon hours...

I hereby introduce the following amendment:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Tyrion, thoughts?

And of course Nappy, since he is the sponsor here.

[President Tyrion]

Tyrion, thoughts?

And of course Nappy, since he is the sponsor here.

That's my exact text, right? So yeah, I'm ok with it

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Sponsor Feedback: None Given
Status: Vote tomorrow morning if that doesn't change.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Sponsor Feedback: None Given
Status: A vote is now open on the above amendment, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

Topic Line Change, Mr. VP.

[bore]

Nay

If this amendment fails I'll have another one up which makes it just 2/3rds of citizens voting in all atlasia (as in a federal referenda).

Also, I can't help but feel that that language about dissenters is incredibly complicated. Why not just have it so that if nothing is resolved the SOFE or Supreme court draws the boundaries? That basically means even if the governor/VP doesn't like regional reform they'll want to participate anyway, so as to minimize the damage.

[TNF]

Aye

[Gass3268]

Nay

If this amendment fails I'll have another one up which makes it just 2/3rds of citizens voting in all atlasia (as in a federal referenda).

Also, I can't help but feel that that language about dissenters is incredibly complicated. Why not just have it so that if nothing is resolved the SOFE or Supreme court draws the boundaries? That basically means even if the governor/VP doesn't like regional reform they'll want to participate anyway, so as to minimize the damage.

I agree with this, NAY

[Maxwell]

Switching my vote to Aye on this amendment, its not perfect, but its a good text to work from.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

AYE

[tmthforu94]

Why not just have it so that if nothing is resolved the SOFE or Supreme court draws the boundaries? That basically means even if the governor/VP doesn't like regional reform they'll want to participate anyway, so as to minimize the damage.

See Clause 6


Aye - it would be swell if folks would bring up their concerns before we start voting on the amendment so we can find something more acceptable to all.

[President Tyrion]

Nay

If this amendment fails I'll have another one up which makes it just 2/3rds of citizens voting in all atlasia (as in a federal referenda).

I am sure that will be well-received regardless of the outcome of this vote.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, if the committee completely fails, then the Registrar General will set the boundaries. This is an important clause largely because it's very important that we do our best to give the regional executives the power in this situation before giving unilateral authority to homely. Essentially, we want to keep one or two regional executives from gumming up the process (and one has already admitted that he would).

[bore]

I get that if agreement isn't reached the task will fall to the registrar general at the moment. What I'm saying is that should be enough to provoke people into taking part in the commission. It's seems to me needlessly bureaucratic (I've read that amendment several times and I still don't quite understand it) to stipulate various ways people can be expelled. As well though the amendment doesn't seem to stipulate how many of the 6 voters are needed to put forward a map, how the proposals are meant to be done etc. If we're going to governe the committees minutiae, that's what we should be deciding.

[President Tyrion]

I get that if agreement isn't reached the task will fall to the registrar general at the moment. What I'm saying is that should be enough to provoke people into taking part in the commission. It's seems to me needlessly bureaucratic (I've read that amendment several times and I still don't quite understand it) to stipulate various ways people can be expelled. As well though the amendment doesn't seem to stipulate how many of the 6 voters are needed to put forward a map, how the proposals are meant to be done etc. If we're going to governe the committees minutiae, that's what we should be deciding.

I think that's the next step. I do think there should be a little micromanagement in this case.

I'm not sure why it's a problem to outline the manner in which a member could be expelled. We're only working with pixel space here, and it's not a zero sum game. We have time to outline the other aspects of the redrawing as well.

[bore]

I get that if agreement isn't reached the task will fall to the registrar general at the moment. What I'm saying is that should be enough to provoke people into taking part in the commission. It's seems to me needlessly bureaucratic (I've read that amendment several times and I still don't quite understand it) to stipulate various ways people can be expelled. As well though the amendment doesn't seem to stipulate how many of the 6 voters are needed to put forward a map, how the proposals are meant to be done etc. If we're going to governe the committees minutiae, that's what we should be deciding.

I think that's the next step. I do think there should be a little micromanagement in this case.

I'm not sure why it's a problem to outline the manner in which a member could be expelled. We're only working with pixel space here, and it's not a zero sum game. We have time to outline the other aspects of the redrawing as well.

In a game like Atlasia, I think simplicity is very important, otherwise the game becomes far less enjoyable. So as a general rule, for me, laws and especially constitutions, budgets, and senate guidelines,  should be as easy to understand as possible- No one gains from making the constitution unwieldy. As well though, I think we need to face the fact that the longer this amendment is, rightly or wrongly, the less likely it is to be ratified.

I agree with you that the senate should control how the committee is run, but I don't think that it should all be put in the amendment. Perhaps a compromise would be a line that says the senate will draw up the rules of the committee on passage of the amendment?

[President Tyrion]

I get that if agreement isn't reached the task will fall to the registrar general at the moment. What I'm saying is that should be enough to provoke people into taking part in the commission. It's seems to me needlessly bureaucratic (I've read that amendment several times and I still don't quite understand it) to stipulate various ways people can be expelled. As well though the amendment doesn't seem to stipulate how many of the 6 voters are needed to put forward a map, how the proposals are meant to be done etc. If we're going to governe the committees minutiae, that's what we should be deciding.

I think that's the next step. I do think there should be a little micromanagement in this case.

I'm not sure why it's a problem to outline the manner in which a member could be expelled. We're only working with pixel space here, and it's not a zero sum game. We have time to outline the other aspects of the redrawing as well.

In a game like Atlasia, I think simplicity is very important, otherwise the game becomes far less enjoyable. So as a general rule, for me, laws and especially constitutions, budgets, and senate guidelines,  should be as easy to understand as possible- No one gains from making the constitution unwieldy. As well though, I think we need to face the fact that the longer this amendment is, rightly or wrongly, the less likely it is to be ratified.

I agree with you that the senate should control how the committee is run, but I don't think that it should all be put in the amendment. Perhaps a compromise would be a line that says the senate will draw up the rules of the committee on passage of the amendment?

I would be fine with that.

[Adam Griffin]

Ugh, you guys can get rid of all that mumbo-jumbo in Clauses 5 & 6 if you just adopt the CARCA map boundaries and do this in one swoop.

[Maxwell]

Ugh, you guys can get rid of all that mumbo-jumbo in Clauses 5 & 6 if you just adopt the CARCA map boundaries and do this in one swoop.

If you want that map through, advocating Governors is probably a better place to go.

[President Tyrion]

Ugh, you guys can get rid of all that mumbo-jumbo in Clauses 5 & 6 if you just adopt the CARCA map boundaries and do this in one swoop.

If you want that map through, advocating Governors is probably a better place to go.

Well, we could easily throw out the amendment as it stands and just adopt this map. The people will have to ratify it regardless.

[Adam Griffin]

Ugh, you guys can get rid of all that mumbo-jumbo in Clauses 5 & 6 if you just adopt the CARCA map boundaries and do this in one swoop.

If you want that map through, advocating Governors is probably a better place to go.

Well, we could easily throw out the amendment as it stands and just adopt this map. The people will have to ratify it regardless.

And that's the whole point. There's this big, rigorous process being designed that will hand the decision-making to six individuals and perhaps require unanimity. I highly doubt that whatever map that would be produced by said committee would be viewed favorably by any larger share of the population than what a result like CARCA has produced. Also, the CARCA map is automatically more democratic as it already enjoys the support of more people than would comprise said committee outlined in Clause 5.

[Gass3268]

Ugh, you guys can get rid of all that mumbo-jumbo in Clauses 5 & 6 if you just adopt the CARCA map boundaries and do this in one swoop.

If you want that map through, advocating Governors is probably a better place to go.

Well, we could easily throw out the amendment as it stands and just adopt this map. The people will have to ratify it regardless.

Thinking over the issue, I think it would be best for us to put forward the adoption of this map as the process would be more straight forward than the massive clause we are currently voting on.

[TJ in Oregon]

Aye

[tmthforu94]

If we adopt that strategy, not only are we losing the votes from people who oppose regional consolidation, but also people who oppose that specific map. The current plan is more likely to pass and allows the regions to play an important role in the process.