Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman

[You kip if you want to...]

Isn't it enough that she will lose 35 years of her life in prison? Why should she also be forced to also endure being psychologically unwell by being forced to live as a man? I'm biased, of course, but it makes sense to me. Yes, it costs the state money - but disallowing it amounts to cruel and unusual punishment. If you happened to have a chronic but not life threatening disease when you entered prison, would the services and medication you need remain unavailable? Only because people struggle to empathise with her specific condition do they question her. Some of you need to grow up.

He should pay for it himself. Any other (non criminal) American would have to.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Isn't it enough that she will lose 35 years of her life in prison? Why should she also be forced to also endure being psychologically unwell by being forced to live as a man? I'm biased, of course, but it makes sense to me. Yes, it costs the state money - but disallowing it amounts to cruel and unusual punishment. If you happened to have a chronic but not life threatening disease when you entered prison, would the services and medication you need remain unavailable? Only because people struggle to empathise with her specific condition do they question her. Some of you need to grow up.

He should pay for it himself. Any other (non criminal) American would have to.

Quite frankly, with the following Manning has, the funds could be easily raised, but the Army is not going to permit it, period.

[Pheurton Skeurto]

..Oh, Barney!
    Fort Hood Hasan has summoned Obama to administer the vows of marriage for Manning and he and, also says, “He is looking forward to their honeymoon at Camp Mohammad”, the just recently renamed camp david

     ...not

This is the greatest thing I have ever read.

[Dr. Cynic]

If Bradley Manning now wishes to be known as Chelsea Manning and feels that she is a woman, that's fine by me. I still feel though that her act was treasonous and put other soldiers in danger.

[Link]

I love how Link is now complaining about how male-dominated this place is.

Our good friend, Link, has been combative since the very first day he existed on this forum (even before he was Link).  He's been a long timer though, and I still like him.

Grumps my intention was not to be combative... least of all  towards you.

This topic has just been way overblown from day one.  The unfortunate incident with the helicopters and the reporters revealed in the data dump was important and absolutely needed to be addressed.  I'm sure there were other things that also needed to be revealed through the appropriate channels.  But the unbelievably reckless manner in which Manning behaved is inexcusable.  From the very beginning I said there was a distinct possibility there was a mental illness component.  Manning's latest statements support my initial suspicions.

I just think people are so obsessed with going off into the weeds on niche topics.  You can't tell me you got a meaningful definition of HRT from the person that responded to your post.  It was an answer that came from a very myopic point of view.  Even if the point was to address a relatively rare type of use it makes sense to just explain it in broader terms first.

I just didn't want people walking away thinking HRT was something mainly used for transgender people.  And to me that was far more important than dithering about pronouns.

And as far as people outrage about pronouns I have worked with multiple transgender people and it hasn't been a problem.  But the difference with them was they went through years of counseling and evaluation under the care of medical professionals before, during, and after the process.  Manning has gone through an incredibly stressful life experience with little or no support network.  I don't think you guys are doing him any kind of service by demanding everyone call him, her.  I wouldn't make any type of major life decision right after what he's been through.  From the time he was arrested I felt he needed plenty of time under the care of a trained psychiatrist.  I mean if he was your relative would you be on board with removing his testicles right away without a lot more counseling and evaluation?  Gender reassignment isn't something you just wake up and decide.

[Kitteh]

Isn't it enough that she will lose 35 years of her life in prison? Why should she also be forced to also endure being psychologically unwell by being forced to live as a man? I'm biased, of course, but it makes sense to me. Yes, it costs the state money - but disallowing it amounts to cruel and unusual punishment. If you happened to have a chronic but not life threatening disease when you entered prison, would the services and medication you need remain unavailable? Only because people struggle to empathise with her specific condition do they question her. Some of you need to grow up.

HShe should pay for it himself. Any other (non criminal) American would have to.

Unlike any other (criminal or non criminal) Brit or Canadian (in almost all provinces) or German or Swede or Australian or Brazilian or Cuban or even Iranian (yes, really). You know, it upsets me too that Americans in prison have access to better healthcare than most Americans, but the solution to that is to give better healthcare to most Americans, not take it away from American prisoners.

[7,052,770]

Ah ha! Finally a way to distinguish Lief and Link...  such similar names!

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Yes, someone's gender is "minutia."

Yeah in a thread where people freely display that they are oblivious to an exceedingly common women's health issue while a bunch of people obsess about pronouns for less than .0001% of the population?  Yeah dude it is minutia in this context.

Maybe you should stop and think about "this context" and how it demonstrates that pronouns and gender identity and all that are the exact opposite of minutiae right now. While you're at it, maybe you should also stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Yes, someone's gender is "minutia."

Yeah in a thread where people freely display that they are oblivious to an exceedingly common women's health issue while a bunch of people obsess about pronouns for less than .0001% of the population?  Yeah dude it is minutia in this context.

Maybe you should stop and think about "this context" and how it demonstrates that pronouns and gender identity and all that are the exact opposite of minutiae right now. While you're at it, maybe you should also stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

It's okay.  Link knows she is right.  And that's all that matters.

[Link]

Maybe you should stop and think about "this context" and how it demonstrates that pronouns and gender identity and all that are the exact opposite of minutiae right now. While you're at it, maybe you should also stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

Read my other post.  No doctor would sign off on gender reassignment at this stage.  Demanding everyone use a different pronoun isn't doing Manning any service.  It's time to separate personal feelings from medical reality.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Maybe you should stop and think about "this context" and how it demonstrates that pronouns and gender identity and all that are the exact opposite of minutiae right now. While you're at it, maybe you should also stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

Read my other post.  No doctor would sign off on gender reassignment at this stage.  Demanding everyone use a different pronoun isn't doing Manning any service.  It's time to separate personal feelings from medical reality.

It's time to separate your antiquated concepts of gender from reality.

[Link]

Maybe you should stop and think about "this context" and how it demonstrates that pronouns and gender identity and all that are the exact opposite of minutiae right now. While you're at it, maybe you should also stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

Read my other post.  No doctor would sign off on gender reassignment at this stage.  Demanding everyone use a different pronoun isn't doing Manning any service.  It's time to separate personal feelings from medical reality.

It's time to separate your antiquated concepts of gender from reality.

What on earth are you talking about?  This guy has been isolated and gone through a very traumatic couple of years with no support network.  You really think this is the time to sign off on a change of gender?  Thankfully no medical professional in America would agree with you.  And I'm sure most people who have changed their gender would agree with me.  The guy needs counseling and psychiatric care.  People running around on the internet demanding people call Manning "she" is not a substitute.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Maybe you should stop and think about "this context" and how it demonstrates that pronouns and gender identity and all that are the exact opposite of minutiae right now. While you're at it, maybe you should also stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

Read my other post.  No doctor would sign off on gender reassignment at this stage.  Demanding everyone use a different pronoun isn't doing Manning any service.  It's time to separate personal feelings from medical reality.

Are you really implying that it's up to a doctor to decide which gender you are?

Regardless of whether she has a penis and testacles and facial hair, she is a she on the inside.  And she asked specifically to be called she.

So get off your high horse, bucko.

[Link]

Are you really implying that it's up to a doctor to decide which gender you are?

I'm not "implying" anything.  I am saying gender reassignment happens after very careful consideration and self reflection under the supervision of a physician... It does not occur via an internet forum write in campaign.

Regardless of whether she has a penis and testacles and facial hair, she is a she on the inside.  And she asked specifically to be called she.

It's interesting that medical professionals require an extensive number of visits over a protracted period of time to make that determination in conjunction with a patient but you can do it in two seconds on the internet.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Regardless of what these medical professionals end up deciding, Link, surely it does us no harm to, even if only provisionally, respect Manning's wishes for the time being rather than going out of our way to justify not so doing.

[Link]

Regardless of what these medical professionals end up deciding, Link, surely it does us no harm to, even if only provisionally, respect Manning's wishes for the time being rather than going out of our way to justify not so doing.

I understand that some people feel that way.  What I took exception to is the idea that just because some of us would defer to prudent medical science and proceed with caution that we are somehow against gender reassignment.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Two years ago I said this guy probably needs psychiatric help.  Since that time he's been thrown in a dark hole and rammed through a military trial.  If he were my friend or son before calling him "she" I would get him a lot of help and let things settle down before making big decisions.

Remember I didn't come into this thread and say everyone needs to stop calling him "her".  No, someone else came in and corrected me and several other people made some inaccurate comments about what I said.

[tik 🪀✨]

Link, it's just common courtesy. That's it. Obviously there is a whole process that needs to happen to make sure everything is legitimate and that will take place in privacy over time. But here, now, it's simply the polite thing to do. You lose nothing by using the other pronouns. By not using them, you are actually encouraging psychological distress for no reason besides your own stuffy, legalistic smugness. Again, it requires basically no effort and costs you nothing and is polite.

This pronoun argument is so dumb. Whether or not the burden for her treatment should be carried by the state is so much more interesting.

[memphis]

We're supposed to consider this guy a woman because he says so? I can call myself the queen of Romania. Doesn't make it so. Being a woman requires two x chromosomes and zero y chromosomes. Basic biology doesn't care what crazy ideas women's studies has put into your head. Doctors can do impressive things, but they can't change a man into a woman. He was born male and he'll die male.

[tik 🪀✨]

Thank you for giving an example of stuffy, legalistic smugness. You can always count on memphis when you need it.

[memphis]

Thank you for giving an example of stuffy, legalistic smugness. You can always count on memphis when you need it.

So sorry you find facts "stuffy and legalistic" when they are contrary to what you want to believe.

[tik 🪀✨]

It's not about what either of us believe. It's just being polite, and it costs nothing. You don't gain anything by basing which pronoun you use on their chromosomes. If you believed you were Jesus Christ I'd call you Jesus to avoid needlessly upsetting you and let a professional actually challenge your identity delusions.

[patrick1]

I have an intellectual and even emotional blind spot on the gender issue and won't weigh in. 

However, I echo Link on the completely reckless manner in which Manning leaked this data. As stated, there were mistakes and crimes exposed but it had real danger of putting a bulls-eye on the back of people who were working hard to advance American and Afghan interests. People trying to hold off a drift back toward wahhabi leadership. Happily, most reports are that no one died as a result or was exposed. 

As a soldier and someone who takes a sworn duty, it is not up to him to make these ad hoc decisions to release data. Chain of command exists for a reason and there are whistleblower channels to follow.

[7,052,770]

Wikipedia has changed the article over to "Chelsea Manning" and changed all pronouns to feminine.  As always, I will defer to Wikipedia's greater wisdom.

[memphis]

It's not about what either of us believe. It's just being polite, and it costs nothing. You don't gain anything by basing which pronoun you use on their chromosomes. If you believed you were Jesus Christ I'd call you Jesus to avoid needlessly upsetting you and let a professional actually challenge your identity delusions.

You think he is delusional? Not a word I would use, but ok. If you had merely said from the beginning that we should all pretend guy is a girl because it makes him feel better, that would have been a more honest conversation.

[Kitteh]

FWIW, Link's arguments re: "unstable mental state" and "making decisions about this stuff while in a bad condition", etc, are extremely familiar to me, because they're pretty much the exact same stuff that was thrown at me by family and others when I first came out. That same thing about "no doctor will prescribe to anyone in this kind of circumstance", too. Fortunately, that was total bs, and I did get a prescription from hrt. As a 17 year old who had just gotten out of a mental hospital a few weeks ago and had "decided"/realized/w.e about this less than a year before. From the second doctor I ever went to. Yeah, "no medical professional would believe this" indeed

We're supposed to consider this guy a woman because he says so? I can call myself the queen of Romania. Doesn't make it so. Being a woman requires two x chromosomes and zero y chromosomes. Basic biology doesn't care what crazy ideas women's studies has put into your head. Doctors can do impressive things, but they can't change a man into a woman. He was born male and he'll die male.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_X_syndrome

Nope, try again.