Opinion of Memphis

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The term 'armchair philosopher' really confuses me. I mean, 'armchair general' obviously makes sense, but what, outside of certain subdivisions like political philosophy and such, would the alternative to an 'armchair' philosopher be, exactly?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's always interesting to note that groups of medical students - there are always a lot in teaching hospitals for obvious reasons - are significantly less male than groups of doctors.

A function of age?

Possibly to an extent, but I think it's also the usual subtle web of invisible obstacles.

[tik 🪀✨]

So, I guess we can we all agree that it's probably a bad idea to send PM's to women (or weird people like me) that you barely know on the Atlas alluding to the desire for sex?

That was really the only point to any of how this started before it morphed into this frightening behemoth.

I agree it's neither a good idea nor a demonstration of basic decency. But I also feel that the social acceptance for introductions has swung too far in the opposite direction where men are made to feel like predators for making any sort of compliment to a woman, no matter how tactfully done. And that's a shame both because people of both genders usually enjoy compliments and because most men are not vicious predators. It's extremely rude and presumptuous to suggest we are. Today's men are are caught in an unfair situation, which leads a lot of them to live lonely lives for fear of being labelled a slimeball or even a criminal. That's not to say life is perfect for women either. It's obviously not, but it irks me when womens grievances are accepted as gospel, but those of men are so callously dismessed because of assumptions that we are so privileged and bigoted and whatever. More broadly, there is an enormous stigma about men making any complaints about our lives, and that is a huge burden to live under as well. I very much wish that people could recognize, as I've stated earlier, that there are pros and cons to being either sex. The world is not as simple as female victims and male oppressors or vice versa.

We don't disagree much, really. I am not against men making nice advances at all, nor is society at large. My caveat is that there's a time and place, and you do need to be aware of your methods and know that the way in which this happened to me struck a lot of us as very inappropriate to say the least. As I stated elsewhere, a handful of others approached me in a much more polite way, and in a way this was flattering. I have no problems with this! It just comes down to how you do it. Perhaps that is a tricky edge to walk along, maybe it isn't fair to men. You do have good points, but most of us also have a hard time taking seriously the plight of being phallusly endowed. Also maybe unfair. In my personal experience and from women I've talked to, they don't feel victimized from advances,just annoyed.

At my last job in the states, a new casual female employee was hired and assigned to work with me. We got along splendidly, joking and flirting but not seriously. The rest of the staff, overwhelmingly men of a variety of ages. I should mention she was young and attractive. At the end of the shift I watched almost every single male employee saunter over to us to literally just make small talk as an excuse to oggle her up and down. All of them. It was very creepy, and she said as much to me. She deals with that on a daily basis. That sh**t would get tiring after a while. Some women might've enjoyed that, of course, but not all. It's very important to go about it in the right way.

At my current job, no women come in to work alongside us. They used to, but what I described above happened there as well a little too often. No outright sexual harassment, just an annoying atmosphere of objectification. The women in my anecdotes weren't all "woe is me" as much as they were irritated by the barrage of unwelcome attention. I think the Atlas can be this way. Your mileage may vary.

Ugh, I went on and on again. Sorry.

[tik 🪀✨]

So, I guess we can we all agree that it's probably a bad idea to send PM's to women (or weird people like me) that you barely know on the Atlas alluding to the desire for sex?

You're a transexxual as well?

Well, no. I like my genitals just fine. In my own head I'm somewhere in the middle and I enjoy pretending. And I found a partner who doesn't think it's too odd, so I'm happy.

[Bacon King]

The term 'armchair philosopher' really confuses me. I mean, 'armchair general' obviously makes sense, but what, outside of certain subdivisions like political philosophy and such, would the alternative to an 'armchair' philosopher be, exactly?

[memphis]

Could be a standup philosopher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl4VD8uvgec

[Kitteh]

The term 'armchair philosopher' really confuses me. I mean, 'armchair general' obviously makes sense, but what, outside of certain subdivisions like political philosophy and such, would the alternative to an 'armchair' philosopher be, exactly?

http://super.abril.com.br/multimidia/filosofighters-english-633303.shtml

[Fuzzybigfoot]

Some of you still need to work on your paragraphs! 

[Tetro Kornbluth]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A very small number, yes, but they exist. Why we should define people by their genitals is not something I fully understand but whatever...

Ah, but I am not doing that, am I? I think our trans posters, who probably want to agree with you, will at least have to concede that there is something deeper to gender than just the genitals.

Of course I bet you will say that I have missed the point. Oh you precious little humanities majors!

BTW, women weren't really expected to be doctors either by society. So why is it that they are making quicker strides in catching up in the medical field than in engineering?

I have to admire your smug sense of superiority given your degree. I think that's fantastic. Clearly I'm the precious one.

Have you considered that all social circumstances are the same? Obstacles in Engineering might be greater than those in Health and Medicine. Might. I don't know enough about the actual specifics of qualifications and the social structure of those qualifications that make a judgement - but I'm not the one making sweeping statements here.

For a scientist, you have still yet to prove your point. Where's your evidence on natural inclinations? Where is the evidence that debunks what I just said? Where is it? I thought you were all scientific method and sh**t...

(Btw, I'm not ruling out the prospect that you are right ftr. Just I don't believe there is strong evidence once take out social considerations. As I linked before, we know that girls (and boys too) behave differently academically in different contexts. While it is hardly proof, it does hint what might really be the issue here).

[opebo]

You're a transexxual as well?

Well, no. I like my genitals just fine. In my own head I'm somewhere in the middle and I enjoy pretending. And I found a partner who doesn't think it's too odd, so I'm happy.

Yes! that's hot.  Thai ladyboys only very rarely remove any genitals - they merely get whopping great breast implants.  Its a wonderful compromise.

[memphis]

You're a transexxual as well?

Well, no. I like my genitals just fine. In my own head I'm somewhere in the middle and I enjoy pretending. And I found a partner who doesn't think it's too odd, so I'm happy.

Yes! that's hot.  Thai ladyboys only very rarely remove any genitals - they merely get whopping great breast implants.  Its a wonderful compromise.

You like the combination of large breasts and penises? It's an odd combination.

[tik 🪀✨]

You're a transexxual as well?

Well, no. I like my genitals just fine. In my own head I'm somewhere in the middle and I enjoy pretending. And I found a partner who doesn't think it's too odd, so I'm happy.

Yes! that's hot.  Thai ladyboys only very rarely remove any genitals - they merely get whopping great breast implants.  Its a wonderful compromise.

Thanks, I suppose. I don't qualify as ladyboy material at all, though, and I don't altogether mind going about my day to day business as a quirky male. I do find them quite admirable. Breasts would be great fun, of course. I think even many straight men wouldn't mind a pair of their own breasts to play with from time to time. But that's what marriage, girlfriends, and prostitutes are for, I guess.

[opebo]

Yes! that's hot.  Thai ladyboys only very rarely remove any genitals - they merely get whopping great breast implants.  Its a wonderful compromise.

You like the combination of large breasts and penises? It's an odd combination.

No the penis is irrelevant for me, but the fact that they've kept it and their gonads means they're their original randy selves.  If they remove that stuff they tend to be rather passionless and moody.

[Badger]

I spent all last week in a domestic volence trial seeking (succcessfully) a guilty verdict despite the wife's adament insistence at an earlier hearing (heard by my jury) that her injuries were from her tripping and falling, and the allegations were false, then she ducked the trial itself.

It was hard work in the real world, which distracted my attention from babysitting here. Otherwise I would've locked this thread a couple days ago. Would've maybe kept me from spending so much time with cleaning it up this afternoon.

As the stupidity seems to have passed, I'll leave it open for now. Anymore stupidity and/or personal attacks will be acted on with extreme prejudice and result in a threadlock.

Thank you for your consideration and maturity.

EDIT: FWIW, the above-mentioned real world duties are also the only reason another topic thread whose name shall not be mentioned has only now been deleted and the earth upon which it was grown, salted. Better late than never....

[Antonio the Sixth]

Oh come on, 5 infraction points for calling Mint an asshole (in the wake of a post which was clearly nasty and offensive)? Are you trying to become our next Inks, Badger?

[Gustaf]

Ok, I read the longer posts on the last page now. So I should comment.

I don't consider what Sbane said to be particularly offensive. Nor do I necessarily disagree.

There seem to be 3 important points of rebuttal coming from Memphis or people supporting him.

1. Men and women display inherent differences

There are a couple of things to say on this. Everyone agrees men and women behave differently, on average. That's pretty clear. The question is to what extent this depends on biology. This is an open question. The short answer is that we don't know for sure. What we do know is that social norms play a big part - this is evident in part due to changing gender roles throughout history and across the globe. But also in how peoples' behaviour in general is clearly very variant with culture. Thus, the idea that society is currently going too far in forcing gender equality onto natural differences is quite dubious. If one wants to argue this you need to indicate awareness of this other stuff to be taken seriously.

Secondly, and this is more important, even if there are such differences how should society treat them? If women are on average less suited to be engineers there will still be plenty of excellent female engineers. Constantly pushing the narrative of how women are worse engineers will do these women a great disservice.

To give a random example. If I'm making a movie about some criminal I could say that the criminal should definitely be black because blacks are so overrepresented in crime. But many of us might consider such an attitude to be problematic, precisely because it leads to people crossing the street when they see a young black male on the same side. Social stigmas matter, which leads to the next point.

Yes, Gustaf, there will still be plenty of excellent women engineers, and in case you missed it, my mom is one of them. I know you are having fun with strawmen, but please stop misrepresenting my position. Got it?

All I have said is that GENERALLY (hopefully you understand the meaning of the word Gustaf) women are not as interested in being engineers as the subject matter does not appeal to them. That does not mean there aren't other reasons why so few engineers and doctors are women. I was just pointing out that the imbalance in genders in the medical field will likely even out very, very soon while the imbalance in engineering and math is likely here to stay. Again, I am speaking GENERALLY here.

There are real issues women still face today. Why don't we just listen to how Sheryl Sandberg herself describes the problem. One of them is that women many times don't take the lead. At least there the problem is mixed between biological and societal standards. I can't say what predominates there. The other more pressing issue is familial pressure. If you want to talk about women's issues and why you don't see them in the high ranks of society, this is the big elephant in the room. As Sheryl described on Meet the Press, she was once dropping off her kid at school. When they got there, one of the other parents (likely a woman but she didn't say) informed her that the kids were supposed to dress up like something or the other, and her kid was not dressed up in such a manner. After dropping her kid off, she felt terrible about it the whole day, and felt that she was a horrible mother. Then she got to thinking, if it was her husband dropping the kid off, would he even be told about it by the other parent? And more importantly, would he even beat himself up about it like she did? As you can see here, both biology and society are at play. This is a complex issue, Gustaf. I don't see why you and others want to simplify it. That is not the correct approach if you really want to find a solution.

How the hell am I straw-manning? I literally said I did not find what you said offensive and that I to some extent agreed with it! If anyone is misrepresenting someone's position it seems to be you, weirdly enough while quoting me in a way that disproves this straw man.

Like, where do you get the idea I want to simplify it. My post made clear that I think both biological and social factors play a role.

My problem is when people like Memphis argue that men are being oppressed and persecuted and need to strike back for their rights to hit on women and so on. Because that's, frankly, a bit deranged and not adding either nuance nor complexity.

[LastVoter]

Oh come on, 5 infraction points for calling Mint an asshole (in the wake of a post which was clearly nasty and offensive)? Are you trying to become our next Inks, Badger?

They are both fighting for the state as oppressors, one as a prosecutor the other as a judge... What do you expect?

[Gustaf]

You've beaten the crap out of some strawmen, Gus. Good job.

They're not strawmen just because you say so. I'm quoting things you said. If you want to run away from those things now, that's your business, but stop the lying. If you say stupid or morally reprehensible statements you're going to have to live with it.

In this case you made the claim that it's easier for women than for men to get fancy jobs. You said that being hindered by things like social norms implies that one is weak and fragile. Those aren't straw men. I even took the pains of posting your quote on it somewhere.

Either defend your statements or admit you were wrong. Don't pretend as if you never said them.

[Kitteh]

Oh come on, 5 infraction points for calling Mint an asshole (in the wake of a post which was clearly nasty and offensive)? Are you trying to become our next Inks, Badger?

They are both fighting for the state as oppressors, one as a prosecutor the other as a judge... What do you expect?

[Badger]

Oh come on, 5 infraction points for calling Mint an asshole (in the wake of a post which was clearly nasty and offensive)? Are you trying to become our next Inks, Badger?

Yes. Mint, deservedly, got notably more points. More to the point, I will not moderate on a two wrongs make a right philosophy.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Are you trying to become our next Inks, Badger?

Yes.

Duly noted...

[Badger]

Are you trying to become our next Inks, Badger?

Yes.

Duly noted...

[batmacumba]

These discussions about gender - and gender-related behaviour - made by people who seems not to have any clue about anyone but themselves (and this, surely, on the very shallow level of self knowledge most people have) are a very good way to lose the very last hopes about human beings as individuals.

Dammit!! Reading an argument between 15 years old machista thinking patterns against 15 years unsophisticated-pseudo-feminist thinking patterns is a very bad exercise on self-inflicted psychological torture.


Why don't you boys and girls of all ages and chromosomes just go around meeting people, treating them like people, knowing them deeply (once you really connect to someone, he/she will always open up their soul to you; try it kids, it's not that hard, you just must demonstrate you're not wanting to use them or take something from them - just be sincere and amicable) and, doing so, start to perceive how contradictory the individuals of our species are?
How prone to be douchebags and, and the same time, to be selfless we all are?
How males and females of any body configuration are different one of each other as groups? And how oddly we are the same and we're doing the same stupid things all the time, again and again?

Let me tell you somethings, for you seemingly inexperienced in life folks to start:

- men are all douchebags;
- women too, but a bit less conspicuously;
- but if you like one of those groups (or both, if that's your thing) It's marvellous to hang out and to live together;
- and it's also like hell;
- and coexisting with your own kind is much more easy;
- and men are plainer than women and easier to deal, in any kind of relationship (love, friendship, whatever);
- but this doesn't make us any less complicated - we are very complicated too;
- but once you understand the other group (and you'll just not understand if you spend energy on not paying attention to them) it's like learning another language without formal study - that immersion technique, you know?
- and people behave differently, and many of them go way out the stereotypes;
- and there's absolutely nothing remarkable in what I wrote here: it's cliché, over cliché, over cliché, just because it's obvious - but such a few people stops to pay attention to those clichés.


So, please, stop this stupid discussion and go meet the world. It's not far at all; I bet that in your extended Family and neighbourhood you can find all the material you need.

Porra!! Cambada de cabaços!


(sorry for the bad expeletives in Portuguese, but I just needed to relax a little).

[Torie]

One little thing that I have observed, is that all this gender war stuff fades as you get older. It's just so pointless - and stupid. And within each gender, there are a range of attitudes, and over time, those attitudes tend to come closer together a bit. On the emotional level particularly, experience, and having the endured the hard knocks, counts. In the end it is about compatibility, sexually and interests, and temperament. And we learn to tack to accommodate, as we learn that it is not all about me.

[Gustaf]

This happened over the last few days and is quite nicely timed to fit in with this discussion.

So, this girl I know recently went to Africa to work on her thesis (which is about development in poor rural areas, etc). She's been staying with a guy who is at the local university there.

Then she got malaria and was quite ill so he had to take care of her a bit. Then he decided to make a move on her, began to talk about how he wouldn't let her go back, tried to pull her in for kisses and so on. Now she feels terribly unsafe around him and it's making her freak out, because when she's hit by malaria she gets to the point of passing out, so she feels dependent on him.

This has led her to decide to reschedule her flight to get out early (because she doesn't really know anyone else there either).

Now, in the world of say Memphis I guess this is a sign of weak character and thus one should not show consideration for her, being weak and all.

But in my world it's a decent example of how it can be hard to be a woman, particularly when you're an engineer as in this case. And I think it's unfair.

His inability to empathize with this sort of thing clearly stems from the fact that he would never have to face this type of problem. I think it's a bad aspect of a character to not have a shred of empathy for others. Especially when there is a streak of petty and mean-spirited vengeance to it, like there is with Memphis' attitude to women.