Opinion of Memphis

[courts]

What's "sjw"?

social justice (keyboard) warrior.

So fighting for social justice is now a bad thing?

well if by that incredibly vague buzzword you mean fighting for actual tangible things like adequate healthcare, shelter, means to provide for oneself, etc. then probably not putting aside unintended consequences and all that. but that's obviously not what we're talking about here.

[tmthforu94]

What the hell.

FF

[rejectamenta]

So fighting for social justice is now a bad thing?

Striking up the band to vomit a litany of -isms at a guy who annoyed you on the internet is fighting for fighting's sake and nothing more. Implying you've done something noble by setting the world record for most "bigot" utterances in a day and thinking that entices anyone to identify with your cause is most telling.

[memphis]

What's "sjw"?

social justice (keyboard) warrior.

So fighting for social justice is now a bad thing?

I think it's a term that developed on tumblr, and so it's commonly used now to characterize the extremely strange fringe people you find on tumblr who identify as "transracial" or "transspecies" or stuff like that and claim themselves as fighting for social justice.

Transspecies?

[Morning in Atlas]

omg memphis check ur privilege

[Kitteh]

What's "sjw"?

social justice (keyboard) warrior.

So fighting for social justice is now a bad thing?

I think it's a term that developed on tumblr, and so it's commonly used now to characterize the extremely strange fringe people you find on tumblr who identify as "transracial" or "transspecies" or stuff like that and claim themselves as fighting for social justice.

Transspecies?

You can find pretty much anything on the internet.

[courts]

What's "sjw"?

social justice (keyboard) warrior.

So fighting for social justice is now a bad thing?

I think it's a term that developed on tumblr, and so it's commonly used now to characterize the extremely strange fringe people you find on tumblr who identify as "transracial" or "transspecies" or stuff like that and claim themselves as fighting for social justice.

Transspecies?

you think that's bad? try googling otherkin.

[Bacon King]

Thanks, everyone, for the responses; a few specific things I'd like to address:

(I'm not sure I appreciate being named before an 'et al' or treated as some sort of coordinator or ringleader).

I honestly had no intentions of implying anything of the sort. I figured it was the best way to refer to "Memphis opponents," I was trying to be serious so I didn't want to address you all as the "asexual trans victimologists" and it would have been clunky to list multiple names. In my mind you were the best person to refer to because of the volume of your posts as well as the obvious thought you put in them.

omg memphis check ur privilege

I officially nominate you as Best Newbie Ever.

[Kitteh]

w/r/t tumblr and "otherkin" and such, I don't really understand why people...idk, care so much. Like I see whole blogs dedicated to attacking them, and I think "does this person really have nothing better to do with their life?". They're just some strange people on the internet saying crazy stuff, no need to pay any more attention to them than the flat earth movement. They're definitely not representative of any larger ideology, and caricaturing everyone who ever uses the term "transphobia" as someone who says stuff like "OMG check ur cisspecies privilege" or "i'm a fat butch queer disabled panracial trigendered otherkin" (as I've often seen done) is a ridiculous strawman. 

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

(I'm not sure I appreciate being named before an 'et al' or treated as some sort of coordinator or ringleader).

I honestly had no intentions of implying anything of the sort. I figured it was the best way to refer to "Memphis opponents," I was trying to be serious so I didn't want to address you all as the "asexual trans victimologists" and it would have been clunky to list multiple names. In my mind you were the best person to refer to because of the volume of your posts as well as the obvious thought you put in them.

Duly noted, and thank you for taking note of those things. I do take some pride in even my more vituperative or hotheaded posts on this forum.

w/r/t tumblr and "otherkin" and such, I don't really understand why people...idk, care so much. Like I see whole blogs dedicated to attacking them, and I think "does this person really have nothing better to do with their life?". They're just some strange people on the internet saying crazy stuff, no need to pay any more attention to them than the flat earth movement. They're definitely not representative of any larger ideology, and caricaturing everyone who ever uses the term "transphobia" as someone who says stuff like "OMG check ur cisspecies privilege" or "i'm a fat butch queer disabled panracial trigendered otherkin" (as I've often seen done) is a ridiculous strawman. 

Indeed, I would submit that I actually don't like identitarian terms very much--partially for theological reasons, partially because I just think they create questionable false dichotomies a lot of the time--and try to use them in a contingent manner, as a sort of profane 方便, if you will. (I'd rather not, since I'm no bodhisattva, but...)

[Gustaf]

I'd like to observe one thing about where this thread has now gone. Being really self-righteous about lofty principles can certainly be annoying. The reason while I and I think some others on here actually go after people on gender issues is that it is one of the few areas where it actually matters.

Almost everyone will have plenty of opportunity to act out misogyny. Both directly against a girlfriend or wife but also indirectly by the culture you help foster in your social circle. The probability that someone like Memphis helps making a woman he knows not report a rape because she thinks it was her fault for "not locking the door" is pretty high. That's why this isn't something I'd just shrug at.

Lots of the other stupidity that abounds on a political forum is ultimately irrelevant - sure, you love the gold standard, whatever. It won't change anything. But this kind of stuff actively harms people. And harms them a lot. I know gay people who have been on the brink of suicide, women who have been raped and so on.

Now, I think plenty of people can attest that I'm no stranger to offensive jokes or to playing around with stereotypes. But I draw a clear line at actual bigotry of the Memphis variety. I agree that arguing on an internet forum doesn't make one a hero. But that's precisely the point. I'm not asking anyone to go volunteer at a shelter for battered women. I'm not doing that myself. The very least one can expect from a decent person is to cast an HP vote for someone who displays a sickening level of prejudice.

-------------------------

BaconKing, I see your point though. I argued that side myself many times. I simply think of it as a judgment call. In this case I think Memphis has had plenty of chances - several people have tried to explain the concept of empathy or patriarchy to him. He has approached this with the attitude that anyone who cares about women isn't a proper man and doesn't get laid. I think he has exhausted any goodwill on it, basically. Beyond that I think this is a sufficiently socially liberal forum that it should be ok for people to actually stand up for this issue. I'm all for moderate heroism when it's appropriate but I'm also enough of one to abandon even that principle when I deem it best.

[afleitch]

Just as an aside, from my own experience, the problem that many people have with trans folk is that some of them can be abrasive (particularly on teh interwebs) and that attitude embarrasses those who are trans who couldn’t be nicer (two people I know fit one of those categories!) People don’t know what trans people know; they don’t know the reasons, or the terminology or the correct things to say. Well meaning people make mistakes or genuinely enquire about which I understand can be uncomfortable but can then be faced with a disproportionate response. If I did the same every time someone assumed I was straight or asked a question about my sexuality out of curisity I doubt I'd be taken seriously after a while.

[Gustaf]

Just as an aside, from my own experience, the problem that many people have with trans folk is that some of them can be abrasive (particularly on teh interwebs) and that attitude embarrasses those who are trans who couldn’t be nicer (two people I know fit one of those categories!) People don’t know what trans people know; they don’t know the reasons, or the terminology or the correct things to say. Well meaning people make mistakes or genuinely enquire about which I understand can be uncomfortable but can then be faced with a disproportionate response. If I did the same every time someone assumed I was straight or asked a question about my sexuality out of curisity I doubt I'd be taken seriously after a while.

No, I totally get that. Believe me, I've taught people manners on those issues plenty of times. The thing is, in this case it isn't about not undertanding the word cisgendered (which I don't think is a crime). It's much more basic than that. Expressing views such as women having an easy time in careers or that men who are feminist aren't getting laid is on a cruder and properly bigoted level.

[Bacon King]

BaconKing, I see your point though. I argued that side myself many times. I simply think of it as a judgment call. In this case I think Memphis has had plenty of chances - several people have tried to explain the concept of empathy or patriarchy to him. He has approached this with the attitude that anyone who cares about women isn't a proper man and doesn't get laid. I think he has exhausted any goodwill on it, basically. Beyond that I think this is a sufficiently socially liberal forum that it should be ok for people to actually stand up for this issue. I'm all for moderate heroism when it's appropriate but I'm also enough of one to abandon even that principle when I deem it best.

Honestly, Gustaf, our views and attitudes appear to be identical; the only difference is how I made my judgement call.

Our disagreement seems to be one of perspective. For me, memphis isn't just an internet bigot or whatever, he's someone I can identify with. My formative years were also spent in Southern suburbia and all his friends in the pictures look like they'd fit in perfectly with my own social group.

I mean, we even went to the same school - IIRC, he graduated the semester before I first attended - and my experiences at that university have shaped my identity and beliefs more than anything else has. We studied in the same classrooms, lived in the same dorms, drank at the same bars, partied in the same frat houses, and probably even had one-night-stands with girls from the same sororities. Now that I think about it we probably even have mutual friends, though him and I have never done the "who-do-you-know" thing.

Ultimately, I can see myself in his situation. In fact, it could easily have been me in this situation, if a few specific events in my life didn't happen they way that they did. I understand why he holds his opinions because I once shared many of them and probably reached them for the same reasons; I understand his reactions because mine would have, for the most part, been fairly similar. Hell, that's why I cared enough to make a 1,200 word post in the first place. I made my suggestions because they're what would have worked best if it was me.

The big picture is that transgenderism (and gender equality on the whole) has a long way to go before it's fully accepted, especially in places like the Southern US where men and women have very clearly defined gender roles and even the most progressive folks hold a "separate-but-equal" duality view and don't understand how someone could see it any other way. If that's going to change, people like memphis and myself are potential allies who need to be won over. And for my two cents, that's an infinitely greater factor here than ideological forum purity.


But really, Gustaf, calling me a moderate hero? Ouch

[memphis]

The probability that someone like Memphis helps making a woman he knows not report a rape because she thinks it was her fault for "not locking the door" is pretty high.

Any people like Gus go around sodomozing puppies with butcher knives Instead of making up absurd positions for me and then arguing against them, you are more than welcome to actually debate things I've actually said. That would require using your cognitive abilities rather than your unstable emotions. You should try it some time. It's pretty fun once you get the hang of it.

[Sbane]

Ok, not trying to start a fight but.....let us examine why people think transgendered people think the way they do and the implications that has on their own views on gender differences.

From what I am seeing, it goes beyond just not identifying with gender roles that are explicitly prescribed to us by society, but to how our brain works. This would imply that the male and female brain work differently. Now, I am perfectly comfortable with that and it seems to be the right prescription for explaining why transgendered people think that way. Indeed, transgendered people have been around for millenia. Just look at the Hijra of India, who are mentioned in the religious texts and myths from thousands of years ago. This is not something that was invented in the 1960's, but has been part of the human condition since ancient times.

That being said, does this not conflict with the theory on gender differences most of you ultra-feminists and transgendered people believe in? Of course some differences are due to socialization, but are not most differences just biological in origin? And I am talking about non-physical differences here. That, in my opinion, is why we see so many engineering majors being men, not because women are discouraged from becoming engineers. That is also why women are catching up much faster in fields like the medical feild than engineering. Of course, these are generalizations. My mom is an engineer, and she loves what she does, so I know this is not some hard and fast rule. But generally, it is true. And I believe it is due to these biological differences that most transgendered people are not comfortable in just defying gender norms by not playing sports or whatever, but feel deeper inside them that something just isn't right.

Well, that was my rant, hopefully it makes a little sense.

PS: And to add, I do believe there are societal reasons for why women get held back at a certain level. I think in the coming years, we will see more women graduating from medical schools than men. Yet, at the same time I think the vast majority of leadership positions in hospitals and the medical profession will be held by men. It mostly has to do with kids and familial expectations, but of course even there biology plays a role, doesn't it?

[memphis]

BK, I very much appreciate your attempts to bring some sanity to this thread. It's nice to have things in common with people. We can both probably agree that people who spend too much time at the Boot are trouble and are to be avoided at all costs To be honest, I didn't find the culture at Tulane to be at all Southern. If anything, the culture there was most like the atrocious Jersey Shore tv show. Frankly, I didn't feel particulary "at home" there, as I was not accustomed to being surrounded by so many spoiled and extroverted rich kids. I had friends and knew plenty of good people, of course, but it probably was not a good fit for me in retrospect. Nonetheless, three very important points: First, I am not an internet bigot. My opinions and observations have been severely misconstrued and misrepresented by others for their own reasons. If I was not tactful in explaining my positions (and I probably wasn't; tact has never been one of my talents), I take responsibility for that and will try to explain myself in a more productive manner in the future. Second, I did not post the pics to "prove I wasn't sexist." That wouldn't make any sense at all, and I didn't realize until just now that people misunderstood my point in doing so. The pictures were posted in repsonse to a specific allegation that I was unpopular with women. Perhaps it wasn't a wise decision, but I posted the pics as factual evidence in opposition to that statement, not to make any sort of point about my own personal ideology. And my third, and by far most important, point, I have never lived in suburbia. I find that lifestyle abhorrent and a crime against nature To make an inperfect comparison, East Memphis (where I've always lived except during college) is most similar to Buckhead in Atlanta except that Memphis is not exploding with newness and popularity the way Atlanta is, and I grew in a bizarre, though quiet and totally acceptable to me, little corner of it where incomes are far closer to average. I know from experience what it's like to have my immediate neighborhood referred to as "Whitetrashville." My public high school was extremely diverse (for Memphis)  racially, economically, and academically. We consistently had more National Merit Semi-Finalist than any other school in Tennessee, most of whom came from well to do families, and we also had a lot of very underprivileged kids who were bused in from Orange Mound, Memphis's version of New Orleans' infamous 9th ward for desegregational purposes. My parents always found it surprising that we had a decent number of South and East Asians. In their day, everybody was supposed to be either black or white. I missed that diversity at Tulane a lot. Moreso economically than anything else. I'm sure it's just my own very average background, but I've always found wealthy enclaves to be lacking in...I would say authenticity, but they're clearly real. Lacking something vital to humanity anyhow. For that I reason, I'm probably the only person ever to prefer Oakland to San Francisco. At Tulane, I even knew Chuck Schumer's niece pretty well. She was a lovely young lady, though I did not get a chance to meet her before the nose job she got for her 18th birthday. I'm sure she was just as lovely a person before as well
Shane, I think it's cool that your mom is an engineer. Mine was a math teacher who took an interest in amateur computer programming way back in the 80s before most Americans knew how to turn on a computer. She even had a few BASIC language educational programs copyrighted or patented (I always confuse the two) just for kicks. I feel compelled to say that I do not appreciate being referred to as a douche, and I want you to know I would never refer to you or any other Atlas poster in such a manner. I'm far from perfect, but I do try as best I can to refrain from that sort of petty name calling. And, I would like to pre-emptively apologize before anybody brings up an embarassing posting of mine that contradicts that statement. Nonetheless, I was pleased to see that you were willing to stop and think about the issue of the sexes and offer your own non-orthodox (for the forum) views. I highly value independent thought and not just when it agrees with me. I readily admit that I can get irrationally outraged by those who just instinctively follow the crowd in debate situations. I've always been a marching to the beat of his own drummer kind of guy. That's one of my biggest issues with organized religion. I don't like institutions tell people what they have to believe and I especially don't like it when they use untestable threats to reinforce it.   Some may have noticed I made a big stink about it when certain politicians suddenly rushed to agree with me on gay marriage, a position I have supported ever since I became interested in politics. Perhaps if I were more of a cup half full kind of guy, I would've been content to be "right" on that one and call it a day. But I was annoyed because I felt like so many members of the public hadn't really "learned" anything about critical thinking but were just following the crowd, albeit my direction I sincerely hope you are not demonized for your convictions, though I don't think I'm being unfair in saying that would be the logical outcome based upon how similar statements have been received in the past. Perhaps your likable personality will prevent another wave of indignation. I certainly hope so.
All that said, I wish all members of humanity well (including the otherkin, of whom I just learned a few hours ago) and I hope that many of you can recognize that nothing I've said stems from a personal hatred for any groups of people. Perhaps we all would do well to question the truths that we clutch tightly more often. We could all be less quick to judge others and make false assumptions, myself included.

[Mechaman]

BK, I very much appreciate your attempts to bring some sanity to this thread. It's nice to have things in common with people. We can both probably agree that people who spend too much time at the Boot are trouble and are to be avoided at all costs To be honest, I didn't find the culture at Tulane to be at all Southern. If anything, the culture there was most like the atrocious Jersey Shore tv show. Frankly, I didn't feel particulary "at home" there, as I was not accustomed to being surrounded by so many spoiled and extroverted rich kids. I had friends and knew plenty of good people, of course, but it probably was not a good fit for me in retrospect. Nonetheless, three very important points: First, I am not an internet bigot. My opinions and observations have been severely misconstrued and misrepresented by others for their own reasons. If I was not tactful in explaining my positions (and I probably wasn't; tact has never been one of my talents), I take responsibility for that and will try to explain myself in a more productive manner in the future. Second, I did not post the pics to "prove I wasn't sexist." That wouldn't make any sense at all, and I didn't realize until just now that people misunderstood my point in doing so. The pictures were posted in repsonse to a specific allegation that I was unpopular with women. Perhaps it wasn't a wise decision, but I posted the pics as factual evidence in opposition to that statement, not to make any sort of point about my own personal ideology. And my third, and by far most important, point, I have never lived in suburbia. I find that lifestyle abhorrent and a crime against nature To make an inperfect comparison, East Memphis (where I've always lived except during college) is most similar to Buckhead in Atlanta except that Memphis is not exploding with newness and popularity the way Atlanta is, and I grew in a bizarre, though quiet and totally acceptable to me, little corner of it where incomes are far closer to average. I know from experience what it's like to have my immediate neighborhood referred to as "Whitetrashville." My public high school was extremely diverse (for Memphis)  racially, economically, and academically. We consistently had more National Merit Semi-Finalist than any other school in Tennessee, most of whom came from well to do families, and we also had a lot of very underprivileged kids who were bused in from Orange Mound, Memphis's version of New Orleans' infamous 9th ward for desegregational purposes. My parents always found it surprising that we had a decent number of South and East Asians. In their day, everybody was supposed to be either black or white. I missed that diversity at Tulane a lot. Moreso economically than anything else. I'm sure it's just my own very average background, but I've always found wealthy enclaves to be lacking in...I would say authenticity, but they're clearly real. Lacking something vital to humanity anyhow. For that I reason, I'm probably the only person ever to prefer Oakland to San Francisco. At Tulane, I even knew Chuck Schumer's niece pretty well. She was a lovely young lady, though I did not get a chance to meet her before the nose job she got for her 18th birthday. I'm sure she was just as lovely a person before as well
Shane, I think it's cool that your mom is an engineer. Mine was a math teacher who took an interest in amateur computer programming way back in the 80s before most Americans knew how to turn on a computer. She even had a few BASIC language educational programs copyrighted or patented (I always confuse the two) just for kicks. I feel compelled to say that I do not appreciate being referred to as a douche, and I want you to know I would never refer to you or any other Atlas poster in such a manner. I'm far from perfect, but I do try as best I can to refrain from that sort of petty name calling. And, I would like to pre-emptively apologize before anybody brings up an embarassing posting of mine that contradicts that statement. Nonetheless, I was pleased to see that you were willing to stop and think about the issue of the sexes and offer your own non-orthodox (for the forum) views. I highly value independent thought and not just when it agrees with me. I readily admit that I can get irrationally outraged by those who just instinctively follow the crowd in debate situations. I've always been a marching to the beat of his own drummer kind of guy. That's one of my biggest issues with organized religion. I don't like institutions tell people what they have to believe and I especially don't like it when they use untestable threats to reinforce it.   Some may have noticed I made a big stink about it when certain politicians suddenly rushed to agree with me on gay marriage, a position I have supported ever since I became interested in politics. Perhaps if I were more of a cup half full kind of guy, I would've been content to be "right" on that one and call it a day. But I was annoyed because I felt like so many members of the public hadn't really "learned" anything about critical thinking but were just following the crowd, albeit my direction I sincerely hope you are not demonized for your convictions, though I don't think I'm being unfair in saying that would be the logical outcome based upon how similar statements have been received in the past. Perhaps your likable personality will prevent another wave of indignation. I certainly hope so.
All that said, I wish all members of humanity well (including the otherkin, of whom I just learned a few hours ago) and I hope that many of you can recognize that nothing I've said stems from a personal hatred for any groups of people. Perhaps we all would do well to question the truths that we clutch tightly more often. We could all be less quick to judge others and make false assumptions, myself included.

That is a very thoughtful speech Memphis.  And I for one am willing to give you a benefit of a doubt.  Not being sarcastic here.

P.S.: Next time you open your mouth on transsexualism, it might be a pretty damn good idea not to stubbornly (after repeat correction) play the "man in a dress" card.  It's just flat out freakin' ignorant, rude, and just an assholish thing to do.
It's kind of like how people used to say that gay people had psychiatric disorders, for instance.

[Sbane]

BK, I very much appreciate your attempts to bring some sanity to this thread. It's nice to have things in common with people. We can both probably agree that people who spend too much time at the Boot are trouble and are to be avoided at all costs To be honest, I didn't find the culture at Tulane to be at all Southern. If anything, the culture there was most like the atrocious Jersey Shore tv show. Frankly, I didn't feel particulary "at home" there, as I was not accustomed to being surrounded by so many spoiled and extroverted rich kids. I had friends and knew plenty of good people, of course, but it probably was not a good fit for me in retrospect. Nonetheless, three very important points: First, I am not an internet bigot. My opinions and observations have been severely misconstrued and misrepresented by others for their own reasons. If I was not tactful in explaining my positions (and I probably wasn't; tact has never been one of my talents), I take responsibility for that and will try to explain myself in a more productive manner in the future. Second, I did not post the pics to "prove I wasn't sexist." That wouldn't make any sense at all, and I didn't realize until just now that people misunderstood my point in doing so. The pictures were posted in repsonse to a specific allegation that I was unpopular with women. Perhaps it wasn't a wise decision, but I posted the pics as factual evidence in opposition to that statement, not to make any sort of point about my own personal ideology. And my third, and by far most important, point, I have never lived in suburbia. I find that lifestyle abhorrent and a crime against nature To make an inperfect comparison, East Memphis (where I've always lived except during college) is most similar to Buckhead in Atlanta except that Memphis is not exploding with newness and popularity the way Atlanta is, and I grew in a bizarre, though quiet and totally acceptable to me, little corner of it where incomes are far closer to average. I know from experience what it's like to have my immediate neighborhood referred to as "Whitetrashville." My public high school was extremely diverse (for Memphis)  racially, economically, and academically. We consistently had more National Merit Semi-Finalist than any other school in Tennessee, most of whom came from well to do families, and we also had a lot of very underprivileged kids who were bused in from Orange Mound, Memphis's version of New Orleans' infamous 9th ward for desegregational purposes. My parents always found it surprising that we had a decent number of South and East Asians. In their day, everybody was supposed to be either black or white. I missed that diversity at Tulane a lot. Moreso economically than anything else. I'm sure it's just my own very average background, but I've always found wealthy enclaves to be lacking in...I would say authenticity, but they're clearly real. Lacking something vital to humanity anyhow. For that I reason, I'm probably the only person ever to prefer Oakland to San Francisco. At Tulane, I even knew Chuck Schumer's niece pretty well. She was a lovely young lady, though I did not get a chance to meet her before the nose job she got for her 18th birthday. I'm sure she was just as lovely a person before as well
Shane, I think it's cool that your mom is an engineer. Mine was a math teacher who took an interest in amateur computer programming way back in the 80s before most Americans knew how to turn on a computer. She even had a few BASIC language educational programs copyrighted or patented (I always confuse the two) just for kicks. I feel compelled to say that I do not appreciate being referred to as a douche, and I want you to know I would never refer to you or any other Atlas poster in such a manner. I'm far from perfect, but I do try as best I can to refrain from that sort of petty name calling. And, I would like to pre-emptively apologize before anybody brings up an embarassing posting of mine that contradicts that statement. Nonetheless, I was pleased to see that you were willing to stop and think about the issue of the sexes and offer your own non-orthodox (for the forum) views. I highly value independent thought and not just when it agrees with me. I readily admit that I can get irrationally outraged by those who just instinctively follow the crowd in debate situations. I've always been a marching to the beat of his own drummer kind of guy. That's one of my biggest issues with organized religion. I don't like institutions tell people what they have to believe and I especially don't like it when they use untestable threats to reinforce it.   Some may have noticed I made a big stink about it when certain politicians suddenly rushed to agree with me on gay marriage, a position I have supported ever since I became interested in politics. Perhaps if I were more of a cup half full kind of guy, I would've been content to be "right" on that one and call it a day. But I was annoyed because I felt like so many members of the public hadn't really "learned" anything about critical thinking but were just following the crowd, albeit my direction I sincerely hope you are not demonized for your convictions, though I don't think I'm being unfair in saying that would be the logical outcome based upon how similar statements have been received in the past. Perhaps your likable personality will prevent another wave of indignation. I certainly hope so.
All that said, I wish all members of humanity well (including the otherkin, of whom I just learned a few hours ago) and I hope that many of you can recognize that nothing I've said stems from a personal hatred for any groups of people. Perhaps we all would do well to question the truths that we clutch tightly more often. We could all be less quick to judge others and make false assumptions, myself included.

First of all, you are not the only one who would prefer parts of Oakland over San Francisco. Trust me, you wouldn't like East Oakland. Not only is it just dangerous, it is also kinda suburban. North Oakland and Berkeley are superior to many areas in San Francisco as far as I am concerned. Though places like the Mission and the Haight/Ashbury are pretty cool and not as pretentious as the Marina/Nob Hill/North Beach etc.

I don't know if I called you a douche. Maybe I did. I thought I called you some other name. Whatever I called you, I said it because that is how you present yourself at times. It wasn't meant to just be an insult, but how I see you at certain times. For example when you are speaking to Torie. Yeah, he doesn't agree on you on many things. So? If you read his posts, you will see that he genuinely feels that his policy positions will lead to a better society for everybody, including the poor. I can't say I agree with him on everything, and neither do you have to, but what's up with the hate? He has never said he comes up with policy positions to further his wealth, unlike some on this forum (looking at you jaichind). He just really thinks he is right. And you should show respect to his views even if you disagree with them, just as he shows respect to your views. You need to be more tolerant of other people's views, even if you disagree with them. I think both me and you disagree with the views on gender held by certain people on this forum, but I don't go at them in the aggressive fashion that you do. And in the end, you have to show some respect for their viewpoints.

[Joe Republic]

So, are people not encouraged to point out the obvious any more then?  I mean, we've seen what happens whenever people do that for religious folk and so on, and I guess this is what got memphis his personal lynch mob to start with.  But are we all now to pretend Santa is real just to keep the delusional happy?

I'm sure you know better than this Joe. Don't be an idiot.

Actually, the fact that Joe is content to write off anybody who subscribes to notions that don't fit into a strict 'A=A' rationalist Wittgensteinian episteme as 'delusional' and leave it at that is one that he's demonstrated many times.

Haha, what?  Pretentious much?

You know, for someone who rightfully hates it when people try to psychoanalyze him around here, you're certainly happy to dish it out.  What's more, you complain when people criticize your old-fashioned religious beliefs, and you complain when people don't understand your talk about 'cis-genderism'.  It's like one minute you're preaching from the pulpit at some exceedingly dull church; the next you're a giving a Womens' Studies lecture at Berkeley.

-----

The true irony in all this is that memphis and virtually everybody trying to defend him from the lynch mob are all supporters of gay rights.  The actual bigots have remained silent this entire time.  C'est la vie.

[afleitch]

That was a post that was long overdue. I'm kind of disappointed in Nathan.

[Eraserhead]

It's amazing how easily offended some people are.

[Morning in Atlas]

Same. Y'all need to keep calm and carry on.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

So, are people not encouraged to point out the obvious any more then?  I mean, we've seen what happens whenever people do that for religious folk and so on, and I guess this is what got memphis his personal lynch mob to start with.  But are we all now to pretend Santa is real just to keep the delusional happy?

I'm sure you know better than this Joe. Don't be an idiot.

Actually, the fact that Joe is content to write off anybody who subscribes to notions that don't fit into a strict 'A=A' rationalist Wittgensteinian episteme as 'delusional' and leave it at that is one that he's demonstrated many times.

Haha, what?  Pretentious much?

I don't understand what's pretentious about using philosophical language that I understand perfectly well and that you should too if you want to share your opinions on other people--in this case children, for God's sake--being 'delusional', unless you're one of those people who characterize as pretentious any choice of language that distinguishes your interlocutor from Dean Koontz, which you really don't seem to be.

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I'm not trying to 'psychoanalyze' you or speculate on your motivations. This is a thing that you do. Similarly, you could say--well, what you say in the next sentence--and you're not trying to 'psychoanlayze' me; you're stating a fact about my personality of which you don't seem to approve.

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This is correct. I'm easily frustrated, easily disappointed, and overly sensitive, and I expect a high degree of understanding or at least willingness to use Google. I would, however, submit that I have less of a problem when people criticize my old-fashioned religious beliefs or don't understand other people's talk about 'cis-genderism' (which isn't a way of writing this word I've ever seen before, and which I didn't actually introduce to this conversation, if you noticed) in somewhat more polite ways. (I admit that I struggle to maintain the standard of politeness that I strive for myself, and occasionally give up for a little while.)

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Do you honestly think I consider this an insult? (You and I seem to have very different ideas of what makes a church dull. Mine had trumpets this Easter.)

[patrick1]

Only late Wittgenstein is pretentious, early is the vox populi.... 

Seriously though, you've been cloistered up in academia for too long if you expect people to talk like this. Sure it can be all rather interesting, but you narrow and alienate your audience when you are actually speaking about real issues.