Opinion of Hugo Chavez

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I used to like him until he started restricting alcohol sales.

Yeah, yeah, that's the single most important issue in the world

[Hash]

Neutral, lean FF.

[Sopranos Republican]

I guess he's pretty FF as far as antisemite homophobic egomaniac demogaugic socialist dictators go.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

HP.  A petty strongman with a messiah complex.

[dead0man]

HP, obviously.  He isn't as bad as his haters make him out to be, but the only reason he has any FF votes here is because he was anti-US/West.  If you're not cartoonishly evil, it's easy for a certain type of westerner to love you if you preach againt the west.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

HP, obviously.  He isn't as bad as his haters make him out to be, but the only reason he has any FF votes here is because he was anti-US/West.  If you're not cartoonishly evil, it's easy for a certain type of westerner to love you if you preach againt the west.

Another strawman. The reason why he has so many FF votes is basically a reaction toward his unfair demonization. Actually it's probably kind of similar to why you are so adamant about defending Israel since you've also admitted Israel does really messed up stuff all the time and that Netanyahu is an asshole.

[dead0man]

I'm sure there is a some truth in that.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The idea that leftists should support Chavez only because there are tons of idiots who demonize him is pretty ridiculous - and insulting to leftists.

[dead0man]

There is some truth in that too.

[Antonio the Sixth]

There is some truth in that too.

Is that your own "bqhatevwr"?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The idea that leftists should support Chavez only because there are tons of idiots who demonize him is pretty ridiculous - and insulting to leftists.

Not should, do. dead0man is arguing it's just because of his anti-Western rhetoric.

[dead0man]

There is some truth in that too.

Is that your own "bqhatevwr"?

No, I honestly believe there is some truth in both yours and BRTD's posts .


edit-while I was formatting this post, the wife walked by, noticed the MLP sig and said "f@cking bronies!"

[© tweed]

nonsense on both counts above -- it is more than possible to feel an affinity for Chavez from a left perspective regardless of whatever boost we may get from right-wing ignorance (putting it nicely) on the issue and related issues.  what much of Latin America has been able to do in the last 15 years flies in the face of the past several hundred years.  even those who bury their heads in the sand know the model: a small Europeanized elite and a military flush with US $$ and weapons beats the population into submission and expatriates the country's wealth, in exchange for a cut.  this model more or less held for centuries, despite the notable uprisings (Haiti 1804, Cuba) which were met with 'appropriate' force....  Chavez is part of a movement, along with Morales, to a lesser degree the Kirchners, etc. that has given these areas an unprecedented degree of freedom from Western domination.  the hate for him you see in the capitalist MSM is a direct consequence of this, and his dramatic tendencies (sulfur at the UN) admittedly played into it, consciously or not.

[WMS]

Make a guess.

[Gustaf]

Horrible Person, obviously. He represents all the worst aspects of the left.

[© tweed]

Horrible Person, obviously. He represents all the worst aspects of the left.

that would better fit somebody like George Galloway.

[Oak Hills]

HP, but with some redeeming qualities.

[Vosem]

Can we really not get Hugo Chavez disapproval over 50%? That's pathetic.

[Leftbehind]

Can we really not get Hugo Chavez disapproval over 50%? That's pathetic.

His country couldn't either.

[Marokai Backbeat]

My opinion of him is basically in line what Lief's defense of him during the Presidential election, not based on some "haha, isn't it so rebellious that I'm defending Hugo Chavez??"

I don't see how anyone who calls him/herself left-wing can support reactionary, neoliberal forces who want to re-centralize control of the country with the wealthy elite and foreign corporations instead of Chavez. Yeah, he's not perfect on civil liberties and human rights, but he's hardly the first and he won't be the last Latin American president who isn't. You need to remember that the people that are working against him have been trying to delegitimize him and his supporters since he first came to power, up to and including literally overthrowing him in a military coup at one point. It's not like he's some murderous dictator; at worst there's a small amount of election fraud (but he still has the support of the majority of the Venezuelan people) and some press restrictions (on, let's remember, a faction that led an armed military coup against him after he was twice democratically elected by a wide margin).

If the neoliberal opposition ever came to power, there is absolutely no question that they would be just as bad or worse when it comes to using the government to silence and oppress Chavez and his supporters. Their history of opposition to him proves as much. Their first two attempts to remove him from power were anti-democratic and done outside legitimate means. First there was the 2002 military coup, which resulted in the forces that took over abolishing the constitution and immediately adopting totalitarian control of the country, leading to massive protests that forced them to allow Chavez back to power. Then in 2003-2004 there was a "general strike" at the state oil company, not of workers, but of the management, in an attempt to sabotage an industry that is crucial to the Venezuelan economy and weaken Chavez's position in the process. This extra-legal, anti-democratic attempt to remove Chavez failed as well. Only then, on their third try, did the rich elite turn to democratic means, a recall referendum that they lost overwhelmingly.

If you want a real example of political conflict between the 1% and the 99%, there is none greater than the fight that is going on in Venezuela. On the one hand, you have a neo-imperialist upper elite that has held a stranglehold on the country's economy for decades, profiting off the sale of the country's resources to the west while the majority of the country toiled in endless poverty. On the other you have Chavez and his supporters, mostly the poor and racial/indigenous minorities who for hundreds of years have had little to no say in how their country is governed. Is Chavez perfect? No. Have his policies fixed all the problems of social and economic inequality that have plagued the country since its inception? No. Would I prefer that he have greater respect for civil liberties? Yes. But at the end of the day, the choice is not between Chavez and some hypothetical perfect Third Way left-winger. It's between Chavez and the champions of an autocratic wealthy elite that has controlled the country for most its history.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

The manner in which some here buy into Chavez's claims that all his critics (including many decidedly on the Left) are part of some neo-liberal conspiracy is quite something.  Chavez's unconstitutional power grabs are for the people, so it's okay for him to interfere in trade unions and brand any remotely critical socialist press as traitorous. 

[traininthedistance]

Neutral, lean HP.

His anti-poverty programs were good, he had more democratic support than his detractors claim, and I have absolutely zero problems with foreign leaders standing up to America.  But the corruption is a bigger issue than most people on the left think, and there's a world of difference between "standing up to America" and "cozying up to actually brutal regimes in the Middle East because you think that's a good way to 'stand up to America'".  The latter is just cartoonish and counterproductive.

To tell the truth, I don't think I'd be able to support either Chavez or his right-wing opponents within Venezuela.  Both sides are pretty bad there.

Also relevant.

[Goldwater]

Massive HP.

[Old Man Svensson]

Patently terrible. The fact that he may have had some vaguely redeeming qualities does not, all in all, excuse that he was otherwise an authoritarian tool.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Massive HP obviously.   If you don't believe me, watch this.