Italy 2013: The official thread

[Antonio the Sixth]

For someone who's so neutral and detached, you're just so eager to point out anything that in any way would favor Berlusconi in some way.

Anyone who isn't constantly whining about Berlusconi is a lackey in the eyes of his haters. You guys are as deranged as the people you rail against.

Anyway, don't derail the thread because of what you perceive to be Pro Silvio commentary/news. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to make a praising post without your side fussing. This is basically 59 pages of Berlusconi bashing and that's fine but the second someone is seen as a fan, everything has to stop so the haters can throw a fit. Either let all (respectful) comments stand and carry on with business as usual or stop posting any kind of promotion/attack on the political figures.

It's hilarious how when Italian politics are brought up you suddenly become a moderate hero who whines about the forum's lack of objectivity and anti-Berlusconi bias. As if Berlusconi haters and Berlusconi fanboys were just as bad and you, who (supposedly) rejects both, are the only smart, objective and balanced person. Except that's not how it works. There is one side (Berlusconi haters) which is morally and objectively right, and another (Berlusconi fans) which is a bunch of irredeemable morons. So being "neutral" means being biased.

[Niemeyerite]

For someone who's so neutral and detached, you're just so eager to point out anything that in any way would favor Berlusconi in some way.

Anyone who isn't constantly whining about Berlusconi is a lackey in the eyes of his haters. You guys are as deranged as the people you rail against.

Anyway, don't derail the thread because of what you perceive to be Pro Silvio commentary/news. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to make a praising post without your side fussing. This is basically 59 pages of Berlusconi bashing and that's fine but the second someone is seen as a fan, everything has to stop so the haters can throw a fit. Either let all (respectful) comments stand and carry on with business as usual or stop posting any kind of promotion/attack on the political figures.

It's hilarious how when Italian politics are brought up you suddenly become a moderate hero who whines about the forum's lack of objectivity and anti-Berlusconi bias. As if Berlusconi haters and Berlusconi fanboys were just as bad and you, who (supposedly) rejects both, are the only smart, objective and balanced person. Except that's not how it works. There is one side (Berlusconi haters) which is morally and objectively right, and another (Berlusconi fans) which is a bunch of irredeemable morons. So being "neutral" means being biased.

That's right. Being anti-Berlusconi is being rational.

[MaxQue]

For someone who's so neutral and detached, you're just so eager to point out anything that in any way would favor Berlusconi in some way.

Anyone who isn't constantly whining about Berlusconi is a lackey in the eyes of his haters. You guys are as deranged as the people you rail against.

Anyway, don't derail the thread because of what you perceive to be Pro Silvio commentary/news. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to make a praising post without your side fussing. This is basically 59 pages of Berlusconi bashing and that's fine but the second someone is seen as a fan, everything has to stop so the haters can throw a fit. Either let all (respectful) comments stand and carry on with business as usual or stop posting any kind of promotion/attack on the political figures.

It's hilarious how when Italian politics are brought up you suddenly become a moderate hero who whines about the forum's lack of objectivity and anti-Berlusconi bias. As if Berlusconi haters and Berlusconi fanboys were just as bad and you, who (supposedly) rejects both, are the only smart, objective and balanced person. Except that's not how it works. There is one side (Berlusconi haters) which is morally and objectively right, and another (Berlusconi fans) which is a bunch of irredeemable morons. So being "neutral" means being biased.

That's right. Being anti-Berlusconi is being rational.

And backing Santorum (moral values!) and Berlusconi at the same time isn't rational.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

That way PD can choose the timing of the next general election, by deciding when to withdraw support. The Grillo party should take the major blame for anything that goes wrong whilst they are in government, as well as no longer being a nice shiny anti-system party.

Great plan, except one small detail... why on earth would M5S agree to form a government on those terms? They're not stupid, they would realise that it's an obvious trap.

Besides M5S doesn't want to form government. What M5S wants to do is to change (over-throw) the system.

[Antonio the Sixth]

That way PD can choose the timing of the next general election, by deciding when to withdraw support. The Grillo party should take the major blame for anything that goes wrong whilst they are in government, as well as no longer being a nice shiny anti-system party.

Great plan, except one small detail... why on earth would M5S agree to form a government on those terms? They're not stupid, they would realise that it's an obvious trap.

Besides M5S doesn't want to form government. What M5S wants to do is to change (over-throw) the system.

Their official position is that they want a M5S government, though. It'd actually be pretty smart for the PD to say "fine, go ahead - we'll back you if we like what you are doing". That would put them in a very uncomfortable position, either appearing as hypocrites or putting themselves on the frontline amid tough times

[RogueBeaver]

I'd prefer keeping the crazy trolls as far away from power as possible. And remember that being supposedly discredited might not mean much in this environment- just ask Berlusconi. There is a solution: elect a new president, swap Bersani for Renzi and have another election. Strong, stable PD majority is the only stable way out.

[minionofmidas]

For someone who's so neutral and detached, you're just so eager to point out anything that in any way would favor Berlusconi in some way.

Anyone who isn't constantly whining about Berlusconi is a lackey in the eyes of his haters. You guys are as deranged as the people you rail against.

"As deranged as the people I rail against" may make a good future username. Remind me of it sometime.

[Leftbehind]

I too get the impression that Phil is a secret admirer of Berlusconi, but won't dare admit it.

[RogueBeaver]

Napolitano will serve out his term and will be naming an advisory group to try and devise policies with cross-party support. Isn't this what everyone's been trying since the election though?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21981679#TWEET695802

[Keystone Phil]

For someone who's so neutral and detached, you're just so eager to point out anything that in any way would favor Berlusconi in some way.

Anyone who isn't constantly whining about Berlusconi is a lackey in the eyes of his haters. You guys are as deranged as the people you rail against.

Anyway, don't derail the thread because of what you perceive to be Pro Silvio commentary/news. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to make a praising post without your side fussing. This is basically 59 pages of Berlusconi bashing and that's fine but the second someone is seen as a fan, everything has to stop so the haters can throw a fit. Either let all (respectful) comments stand and carry on with business as usual or stop posting any kind of promotion/attack on the political figures.

It's hilarious how when Italian politics are brought up you suddenly become a moderate hero who whines about the forum's lack of objectivity and anti-Berlusconi bias. As if Berlusconi haters and Berlusconi fanboys were just as bad and you, who (supposedly) rejects both, are the only smart, objective and balanced person. Except that's not how it works. There is one side (Berlusconi haters) which is morally and objectively right, and another (Berlusconi fans) which is a bunch of irredeemable morons. So being "neutral" means being biased.

No, I'm not a Moderate Hero; I'm just against blatantly unfair treatment towards anyone that dares to not be 110% against Berlusconi/PdL all of the time. I'm certainly not a Moderate Hero here when it comes to PdL fans; I don't think they're just as bad because they're basically non-existant. If they were here (like the one time a Pro Silvio post was made and deleted), I would defend them because of the mob mentality against them.

Your "objectively morally right vs. morons" comment is all of the proof I need that your commentary here is bogus. I'm so sorry that you take the supposed Silvio "black and white" worldview. Get over yourself and stop whining about (shock!) other opinions.

[Keystone Phil]

I too get the impression that Phil is a secret admirer of Berlusconi, but won't dare admit it.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm all about liking and defending only non-controversial figures.

By the way, for the longest time I was more of a Silvio fan (though I've been clear that I've always been more fascinated with Berlusconi than anything else. "OH NO!!! That's code for SUPPORTER!").

See my above paranthetical point when you want to talk about my "support" for Silvio not jiving with my admiration for Santorum.

Bottom line: the fact that this being made about me is pathetic. Stick to discussing what is going on politically in Italy, not who I may or may not support. And if anyone chooses to voice their support for someone you don't like, learn how to be an adult: accept it, discuss it respectfully if necessary and move on.

[ag]

I too get the impression that Phil is a secret admirer of Berlusconi, but won't dare admit it.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm all about liking and defending only non-controversial figures.

It's not about being controversial. You full well realize that there is a difference between Santorum and Berlusconi. It is that one can support Santorum for, say, ideological reasons and stick be respectable, while supporting Berlusconi is incompatible with remaining on speaking terms with anyone, for whom "Western democracy" is moré tan an empty sound. You know it, and know why it is so. But you are tempted.

[Antonio the Sixth]

For someone who's so neutral and detached, you're just so eager to point out anything that in any way would favor Berlusconi in some way.

Anyone who isn't constantly whining about Berlusconi is a lackey in the eyes of his haters. You guys are as deranged as the people you rail against.

Anyway, don't derail the thread because of what you perceive to be Pro Silvio commentary/news. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to make a praising post without your side fussing. This is basically 59 pages of Berlusconi bashing and that's fine but the second someone is seen as a fan, everything has to stop so the haters can throw a fit. Either let all (respectful) comments stand and carry on with business as usual or stop posting any kind of promotion/attack on the political figures.

It's hilarious how when Italian politics are brought up you suddenly become a moderate hero who whines about the forum's lack of objectivity and anti-Berlusconi bias. As if Berlusconi haters and Berlusconi fanboys were just as bad and you, who (supposedly) rejects both, are the only smart, objective and balanced person. Except that's not how it works. There is one side (Berlusconi haters) which is morally and objectively right, and another (Berlusconi fans) which is a bunch of irredeemable morons. So being "neutral" means being biased.

No, I'm not a Moderate Hero; I'm just against blatantly unfair treatment towards anyone that dares to not be 110% against Berlusconi/PdL all of the time. I'm certainly not a Moderate Hero here when it comes to PdL fans; I don't think they're just as bad because they're basically non-existant. If they were here (like the one time a Pro Silvio post was made and deleted), I would defend them because of the mob mentality against them.

Your "objectively morally right vs. morons" comment is all of the proof I need that your commentary here is bogus. I'm so sorry that you take the supposed Silvio "black and white" worldview. Get over yourself and stop whining about (shock!) other opinions.

I'm not whining about "opinions". I am pointing out that said "opinions" are, objectively speaking, f**king stupid. And yes, your position is typical of a moderate hero, as your comment about the "black and white worldview" eloquently shows. Even worse, you're using the middle ground fallacy on an issue where even the biggest moderate hero would understand it makes no sense.

[Velasco]

Silvio and moderate heroism are things absolutely incompatible. I though that the Moderate Hero in this Tragicomedy was Monti, oth. However, this is a funny discussion to read, even when this mess in which Il Cavaliere plays a protagonic role is serious and disgusting. As some illustrious poster wrote in this thread, maybe paraphrasing a certain Kurtz: Oh the Horror!

[Leftbehind]

I too get the impression that Phil is a secret admirer of Berlusconi, but won't dare admit it.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm all about liking and defending only non-controversial figures.

By the way, for the longest time I was more of a Silvio fan (though I've been clear that I've always been more fascinated with Berlusconi than anything else. "OH NO!!! That's code for SUPPORTER!").

See my above paranthetical point when you want to talk about my "support" for Silvio not jiving with my admiration for Santorum.

Bottom line: the fact that this being made about me is pathetic. Stick to discussing what is going on politically in Italy, not who I may or may not support. And if anyone chooses to voice their support for someone you don't like, learn how to be an adult: accept it, discuss it respectfully if necessary and move on.

Look, I don't actually care about whether you like Berlusconi, but I think the fit you threw above does nothing to dispel the notion that you're ashamed to support him. I think you've read hostility in my post that wasn't there: this isn't a witch-hunt for Berlusconi supporters, just a sneaking suspicion said with a smile. I expect most right-wingers to support his coalition - I know most UK right-wingers would - so it's not a case of me not being able to stomach your support for him. There's just a hint of barely concealed glee in your posts about him that's difficult to overlook.

Also - AG said - there's a difference between supporting less-than-popular socons, and discredited corrupt buffoons like Berlusconi, so there's a very real reason why even deeply right-wing people are hesitant to show support for him.

[RogueBeaver]

Renzi still reiterating he's not interested in being PM... if that holds, PD is screwed.

http://www.gonews.it/articolo_189640_Renzi-Lascio-Palazzo-Vecchio-solo-per-fare-il-Premier.html

[Keystone Phil]

I too get the impression that Phil is a secret admirer of Berlusconi, but won't dare admit it.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm all about liking and defending only non-controversial figures.

It's not about being controversial. You full well realize that there is a difference between Santorum and Berlusconi. It is that one can support Santorum for, say, ideological reasons and stick be respectable, while supporting Berlusconi is incompatible with remaining on speaking terms with anyone, for whom "Western democracy" is moré tan an empty sound. You know it, and know why it is so. But you are tempted.

The point is that I'm afraid to support someone because it's frowned upon. If that was the case, I would be just as afraid to support and defend Santorum as I would Berlusconi. And this entire argument is negated by the fact that I did, at one time, openly support Berlusconi when it wasn't popular. Chew on that fact, please. Though I'm sure that will be ignored because it doesn't fit the idiotic myth around here.

And Tony, two can plan at this game: your opinions, as a left winger supporter of the most hilariously incompetent center-left organization in the western world, are objectively stupid. Why? Because I said so. And pointing out that this isn't black and white isn't Moderate Heroism. Moderate Heroism is taking a position smack in the middle just for the sake of it being the centrist position. That is the exact opposite of me. Get a clue.

Now get the hell over however I feel or may feel. Discuss the damn news and process.

[Keystone Phil]

Tony, I'm asking that you be warned at this point.

I don't give a damn that you find Berlusconi indefensible. Don't. Give. A. Damn. We aren't here to meet your approval. Grow the hell up, wake the hell up to other opinions and stop derailing the damn thread.

And please stop being so blatantly disingenuous when you know I'm not here defending Berlusconi. I comment on news, you throw a fit whenever it is "Pro Berlusconi" and want to lash out because you have no other outlet. Your side is going to lose again soon enough. I know this is very, very frustrating for you but get over it. Thanks!

[Antonio the Sixth]

The only reason I give a damn is because I have some esteem for you and know you can be a good poster when you actually want to. I certainly would limit myself to laughing you off if I thought you were just some random hack. I'll certainly do this from now on, since you don't seem to be in any way interested in having any level of common sense in this thread. Have fun trolling.

[Keystone Phil]

The only reason I give a damn is because I have some esteem for you and know you can be a good poster when you actually want to. I certainly would limit myself to laughing you off if I thought you were just some random hack. I'll certainly do this from now on, since you don't seem to be in any way interested in having any level of common sense in this thread. Have fun trolling.

I discuss the damn news in this thread, kid. That's the "common sense" in this thread. I've stressed several times that we shouldn't dwell on personal opinions. You and others disregard that and then when someone dares to comment on news that seems "Pro Silvio," you throw a temper tantrum because "THERE'S NO WAY TO OBJECTIVELY BE IN FAVOR OF SILVIO!!!!" That's not even recognizing the fact that my comments on these stories aren't Pro Silvio.

You've derailed this thread every time and you're going to talk about trolling? "Trolling" is now anything you dislike that's posted about Berlusconi. I've had enough of it. Moderators have been notified. I've tried with you in the past. You're not interested. 

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm sorry if reality has an "anti-Silvio" bias.

Really, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say you are bringing up news that nobody wasn't talking about because they were "pro-Silvio". I don't recall you bringing up and particular news story we refused to talk about. The problem is not about the news themselves but rather your reactions to it, and the fact they almost always are comments on how successful Berlusconi is or is going to be. Which would lead anyone to believe you're a Belusconi supporter (personally, I've no idea, I think it's more likely that you just like to be contrarian).

I also find it pretty interesting the idea that "we shouldn't dwell on personal opinions". So moderate heroish. There is nothing wrong with expressing a personal opinion, as long as it's a personal opinion which makes some sense. Pretending to be "above" the political debate is only a way for you to preserve this moderate hero act and equate the "pro-Silvio" and "anti-Silvio" sides as if they were equivalent.

[Keystone Phil]

When did I say you refused to talk about a story? I'm saying I talk about news and you throw a tantrum because you think it's "Pro Silvio."

You need to get a clue about what Moderate Hero means. It isn't a Moderate Hero stance to say that a thread about news should stay about news and not make this a campaign thread but if you want to allow personal opinions, learn to accept different ideas. I don't want to hear "Yeah, let's have personal opinions and campaigning here but only for sides that aren't for Silvio. BEAUSE REALITY IS BIASED AGAINST HIM!!!

Let's all remember that your recent tantrum began when I said that Silvio benefited from chaos and people turn to him for stability. Analysts have said that for years but because I said it, you had to moan about how it was Berlusconi cheerleading. My "opinion" didn't make sense to Master Antonio. I'll remember that any time a respected analyst points that out.

Listen, kid, I've had enough. I've discussed this to death. You just want to rant because you're very frustrated that your side is hilariously incompetent. You make me this Pro Silvio enemy so you can flip out. You've derailed this enough. You're the troll here. The end.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I wouldn't really have minded for that comment in itself honestly, if it wasn't the gazillionth one you had made about Silvio's greatness and the way he's so much better/more skillful than everyone else (though implying Berlusconi represents "stability" in the modern political situation is something pretty ridiculous to say). Look, I've no idea if you're a Berlusconi fan or not, but you're acting like one. But if you at least claimed yourself as an actual Berlusconi fan (as opposed to a moderate hero seeking to correct this forum's supposed "bias") it would be far less annoying. We could actually engage in substantial discussion and it wouldn't be hard to rationally demonstrate that Berlusconi is a vile piece of sh*t and move on to something else. But you'd rather play your little annoying games.

[Keystone Phil]

For the last time, this isn't about meeting your approval. Some of you really need to get over yourselves. You think I feel the need to hide what I feel from you guys? Who do you think you are? And most importantly...

My opinions here shouldn't be the topic of discussion. Who the hell cares? Accept whatever the hell you think I believe and move the hell on. This childish obsession you have with the opposition (or people you think are in the opposition) is exactly the stuff you whine about with Berlusconi!

The only one playing games is you. Constantly harping on whatever the hell I believe or don't believe. I'm going to continue to post whatever the hell I want. It isn't trolling. It will be allowed. You, however, want to be a little baby any time someone says something that seems remotely Pro Silvio. You're a child. A child that realizes your side is losing. Again. One of its great traditions.

You've now dedicated a full page to your stupid witch hunt. Again, it has been reported and you'll be dealt with.

[MaxQue]

Anyways, Berlusconi isn't leading by enough. It would be the same as currently, but with Berlusconi in the role of Bersani.