Italy 2013: The official thread

[Keystone Phil]

Excuse my idiocy. It's five points, not four. 

[Hash]

Italy is a beautiful country, but their elections never fail to be depressing. It's mind boggling how Berlusconi can still be taken seriously (let alone a serious contender for PM again) by nearly a third of voters and turned this election, which was supposed to mark the end of the post-94 era, into another close election in which he's a strong contender.

But Hash's Rules of Elections #1: Voters are idiots.

[Keystone Phil]

We've still got a few weeks left. I'll only panic if it's in the last week.

There's a reason why the left wanted the election sooner rather than later. "A few weeks left" is far from necessarily a good thing for Silvio critics.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Italy is a beautiful country, but their elections never fail to be depressing. It's mind boggling how Berlusconi can still be taken seriously (let alone a serious contender for PM again) by nearly a third of voters and turned this election, which was supposed to mark the end of the post-94 era, into another close election in which he's a strong contender.

But Hash's Rules of Elections #1: Voters are idiots.

Yeah, basically.

[Niemeyerite]

I am on Panic Mode now. Italy, Italy, Italy... I love you, but I won't come back there until you forget Berlusconi/until he dies.

[Peeperkorn]

I wrote a post pro Berlusconi.

It was deleted ipso facto.

Love your freedom of speech.

JulioMadrid: Why don't you look at your country if you want corruption?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I wrote a post pro Berlusconi.

It was deleted ipso facto.

Love your freedom of speech.

I spoke out against that posts' deletion FTR.

[Velasco]

I wrote a post pro Berlusconi.

It was deleted ipso facto.

Love your freedom of speech.

JulioMadrid: Why don't you look at your country if you want corruption?

Esto es como ver la paja en el ojo ajeno y no ver la viga en el propio. ¿Conoces el refrán?

[Peeperkorn]

I wrote a post pro Berlusconi.

It was deleted ipso facto.

Love your freedom of speech.

I spoke out against that posts' deletion FTR.

Thanks. I didn't understand WHY it was deleted.

[Peeperkorn]

I wrote a post pro Berlusconi.

It was deleted ipso facto.

Love your freedom of speech.

JulioMadrid: Why don't you look at your country if you want corruption?

Esto es como ver la paja en el ojo ajeno y no ver la viga en el propio. ¿Conoces el refrán?

Pues busca casos de corrupción en Uruguay en los últimos 25 años, ultratón.

Lo de España es infinitamente más terrible que toda la corrupción italiana junta de aquí a esta época.

Traducción:

So try to find out cases of corruption in Uruguay at the last 25 years, Ultratón

What's happening in Spain today is much more terrible than all the corruption of Italy together since World War II.

[Velasco]

I wrote a post pro Berlusconi.

It was deleted ipso facto.

Love your freedom of speech.

JulioMadrid: Why don't you look at your country if you want corruption?

Esto es como ver la paja en el ojo ajeno y no ver la viga en el propio. ¿Conoces el refrán?

Pues busca casos de corrupción en Uruguay en los últimos 25 años, ultratón.

Lo de España es infinitamente más terrible que toda la corrupción italiana junta de aquí a esta época.

Traducción:

What's living Spain today is much more terrible than all the corruption of Italy since World War II.

Ni de coña la corrupción española es peor que la italiana. Prefiero no mencionar a la mafia, la camorra, la 'ndragheta o la logia P2... Por supuesto la corrupción aquí también apesta y es terrible pero eso no descalifica a cualquier ciudadano de este país para comentar la política italiana. Tampoco me gustaron las declaraciones de cierto presidente uruguayo sobre la naturaleza corrupta de Argentina, ya que lo mencionas. Y sí, en Argentina hay corrupción. Procura dar menos lecciones de moralidad basadas en una supuesta superioridad nacional, colega.

[Franknburger]

I wrote a post pro Berlusconi.

It was deleted ipso facto.

Love your freedom of speech.

JulioMadrid: Why don't you look at your country if you want corruption?

Esto es como ver la paja en el ojo ajeno y no ver la viga en el propio. ¿Conoces el refrán?

Pues busca casos de corrupción en Uruguay en los últimos 25 años, ultratón.

Lo de España es infinitamente más terrible que toda la corrupción italiana junta de aquí a esta época.

Traducción:

What's living Spain today is much more terrible than all the corruption of Italy since World War II.

Ni de coña la corrupción española es peor que la italiana. Prefiero no mencionar a la mafia, la camoprra, la 'ndragheta o la logia P2... Por supuesto la corrupción aquí también apesta y es terrible pero eso no descalifica a cualquier ciudadano de este país para comentar la política italiana. Tampoco me gustaron las declaraciones de cierto presidente uruguayo sobre la naturaleza corrupta de Argentina, ya que lo menciones. Y sí, en Argentina hay corrupción. Procura dar menos lecciones de moralidad basadas en una supuesta superioridad nacional, colega.

While I understand some Spanish, maybe it would be a good idea to have the English-pnly speakers take part in the discussion ...

From the Transparency International 2012 Corruption Perception Index

Uruguay:                  Rank 20, score 72
Spain                        Rank 30, Score 65
Italy:                        Rank 72, score 42
Argentina                  Rank 102, score 35

For reference:
USA                         Rank 19, score 73
Ghana                      Rank 65, score 45
India                        Rank 94, score 36

Oh, and by the way - I hate censorship, and just start to wonder whether I mad a mistake in my moderator rating.

[Peeperkorn]

Argentina está a otro nivel de corrupción.

Argentina is in other level of corruption.

But we are not Argentina.

[Peeperkorn]

I wrote a post pro Berlusconi.

It was deleted ipso facto.

Love your freedom of speech.

JulioMadrid: Why don't you look at your country if you want corruption?

Esto es como ver la paja en el ojo ajeno y no ver la viga en el propio. ¿Conoces el refrán?

Pues busca casos de corrupción en Uruguay en los últimos 25 años, ultratón.

Lo de España es infinitamente más terrible que toda la corrupción italiana junta de aquí a esta época.

Traducción:

What's living Spain today is much more terrible than all the corruption of Italy since World War II.

Ni de coña la corrupción española es peor que la italiana. Prefiero no mencionar a la mafia, la camoprra, la 'ndragheta o la logia P2... Por supuesto la corrupción aquí también apesta y es terrible pero eso no descalifica a cualquier ciudadano de este país para comentar la política italiana. Tampoco me gustaron las declaraciones de cierto presidente uruguayo sobre la naturaleza corrupta de Argentina, ya que lo menciones. Y sí, en Argentina hay corrupción. Procura dar menos lecciones de moralidad basadas en una supuesta superioridad nacional, colega.

While I understand some Spanish, maybe it would be a good idea to have the English-pnly speakers take part in the discussion ...

From the Transparency International 2012 Corruption Perception Index

Uruguay:                  Rank 20, score 72
Spain                        Rank 30, Score 65
Italy:                        Rank 72, score 42
Argentina                  Rank 102, score 35

For reference:
USA                         Rank 19, score 73
Ghana                      Rank 65, score 45
India                        Rank 94, score 36

Oh, and by the way - I hate censorship, and just start to wonder whether I mad a mistake in my moderator rating.

Thanks.

[Velasco]

From the Transparency International 2012 Corruption Perception Index

Uruguay:                  Rank 20, score 72
Spain                        Rank 30, Score 65
Italy:                        Rank 72, score 42
Argentina                  Rank 102, score 35

For reference:
USA                         Rank 19, score 73
Ghana                      Rank 65, score 45
India                        Rank 94, score 36

Oh, and by the way - I hate censorship, and just start to wonder whether I mad a mistake in my moderator rating.

Thanks.
[/quote]

Good. Look at the ranking; that proves your point about your comparison between Spain's and Italy's corruption. Do you think that discussion is meaningful? Btw, as far as I'm concerned you can make propaganda of Berlusconi all the way long. I lack of censorship's tools and, oth, I don't believe in censors. Oh dear, I love nationalists and the Silvio Fan Club.

[Peeperkorn]

From the Transparency International 2012 Corruption Perception Index

Uruguay:                  Rank 20, score 72
Spain                        Rank 30, Score 65
Italy:                        Rank 72, score 42
Argentina                  Rank 102, score 35

For reference:
USA                         Rank 19, score 73
Ghana                      Rank 65, score 45
India                        Rank 94, score 36

Oh, and by the way - I hate censorship, and just start to wonder whether I mad a mistake in my moderator rating.

Thanks.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

At least Berlusconi didn't steal money from its own party.

He organised some parties with cute women....oh, the horror!

[MaxQue]

For rememberance, those policies were taken after elections threads turned into partisan debates and ultra-hackness.

Anyways, any political debates belongs to International Discussion, not International Elections, which is for analysis and description of elections, in the commonly accepted view.

[Keystone Phil]

So every negative comment about Berlusconi is going to be removed, too?

I agree that this should be about discussing the news and dynamics of the race but let's not excuse one type of opinion and not another.

[MaxQue]

So every negative comment about Berlusconi is going to be removed, too?

I agree that this should be about discussing the news and dynamics of the race but let's not excuse one type of opinion and not another.

Sure, it should be balanced. But, I'm not the moderator and a forum isn't a democracy either.

[SPQR]

From the Transparency International 2012 Corruption Perception Index

Uruguay:                  Rank 20, score 72
Spain                        Rank 30, Score 65
Italy:                        Rank 72, score 42
Argentina                  Rank 102, score 35

For reference:
USA                         Rank 19, score 73
Ghana                      Rank 65, score 45
India                        Rank 94, score 36

Oh, and by the way - I hate censorship, and just start to wonder whether I mad a mistake in my moderator rating.

Thanks.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

At least Berlusconi didn't steal money from its own party.

He organised some parties with cute women....oh, the horror!

Hey,look,the average italian voter!

[Iannis]

SWG, quite reliable 5% of difference:

http://www.sondaitalia.com/2013/02/il-sondaggio-elettorale-swg-per-agora.html

I don't share the typical angosaxon view, that the voter should be polarized, pro-Berlusconi / against Berlusconi. I judge the programs of center-right and center-left as equally a failure and a burden for Italy.

[Niemeyerite]

Al uruguayo:

Ojalá tuvieramos un Presidente como José Mujica... Pero no lo tenemos // I hope we had a President like José Mujica, but we don't.

Me aterra la corrupción en España, me pone de los nervios, y no sé si será peor o mejor que la italiana (creo que no está tan extendida) pero eso me da igual. Como español que soy, hago lo que puedo para evitar que las cosas sigan así: voy a la sede del PP a protestar, me quejo en twitter, voy a manifestaciones...
Como sabrás no vivo en Italia, no puedo hacer lo mismo que aquí, así que mi mejor y única forma de protestar es no volver hasta que se olviden del payaso senil y cuasi-mafioso que es Berlusconi.

I'm terrified because of the corruption in Spain, it makes me anxious, and I don't even know if it's worse here than in Italy (I think it's not that spreaded out here) but it does't matter.
As the Spaniard I am, I do what I can to prevent things continue like this: I go to PP headquarters to protest, I complain about it on twitter, I go to every demonstration I can...
As you may know, I don't live in Italy, I can't do the same I do here, so my best and only way of protesting is not going there until they reject that senile and almost-mafioso clown that Berlusconi is.

[Keystone Phil]

So every negative comment about Berlusconi is going to be removed, too?

I agree that this should be about discussing the news and dynamics of the race but let's not excuse one type of opinion and not another.

Sure, it should be balanced. But, I'm not the moderator and a forum isn't a democracy either.

Ok, I'm with you up until "the forum isn't a democracy." I'm sorry but is that justifying deletion of posts in favor of Berlusconi? There isn't an established policy against PdL/Berlusconi set out by the owner of this site. It isn't in the ToS. If there are other reasons for deleting a post that happens to be praising Silvio, fine. But don't excuse a moderator deleting a political opinion just because he doesn't like it and use "this place isn't a democracy" as justification.

[Iannis]

I cmpletely agree with Keystone Phil

[Niemeyerite]

I haven't read Peeperkorn's post, but he tends to be very, very offensive. I doubt it's only because he praised Berlusconi.