SENATE BILL: Regional Legislative Petitions Act (law'd)

[Napoleon]

But I'd suggest rather than jumping to conclusions, you take my criticism of this bill for what it is:  Criticism of this bill.  I'm not going to blanket veto all of your bills.  And I won't do it to spite you.  I will only do it if I think it is a bad bill or it needs to be reworked.

Here's the problem: Many of the complaints that come from you or your side are petty and difficult to indulge. Several of you vote in a bloc almost constantly. And when you and Napoleon and others make up your mind? The only time you actually change it is from Aye to Nay. If I actually thought I could win you over by spending time here actually arguing in this bill's favor (which I've done multiple times up to this point) I would do so. I know that I can't.

You've made up your mind. Napoleon has made up his mind. Not only on this bill, but several others, and it will be like this in the future. Your positions are always the unmovable ones. You are the one that always must be compromised to, and you are the ones that always do the shooting down. It is frustrating and completely impossible to actually navigate through.

There are people in this body that are interested in, and moved by, debate. I am among them. I don't think some others are.

I see a few untruthful statemewnts and a ridiculous attempt at trying to use the fallacy of guilt by association.

[bgwah]

I think the point some are trying to make is they introduce a bill on behalf a single constituent. And even being asked by one is semi-rare. Which makes this bill unnecessary, because 25% probably won't ever happen...

While I tend to think the same, I've come to a slightly different conclusion: it certainly won't hurt to pass the bill, so why not?

[Napoleon]

The idea that this bill wastes anything is preposterous. Regions should have a say over their Senators, and Senators should be forced to some extent to be kept in touch with their constituents. We have had plenty of instances of inactive Senators that get elected purely on flukes and do nothing, or Senators that don't perform very well even if they are active. We have a citizenry that feels completely disconnected from the lawmaking activities of Atlasia at-large and could use any excuse to get active on any level, and aside from this last session, this Senate could certainly uses plenty of reasons to actually legislate more.

We got way more done before you came, trust me. You must have been a citizen "disconnected from lawmaking activity" in order to make such a preposterous, egotistical statement.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I think the point some are trying to make is they introduce a bill on behalf a single constituent. And even being asked by one is semi-rare. Which makes this bill unnecessary, because 25% probably won't ever happen...

While I tend to think the same, I've come to a slightly different conclusion: it certainly won't hurt to pass the bill, so why not?

Indeed, on both counts.

When I served as Midwest Senator, I made it clear several times I'd be happy to introduce bills on constituent's request, if asked. Never happened, but I won't take my declared readiness back.

At worst, this bill won't be used much, but why not to have this option?

Petitioning can also be a great experience of grassrot initiative: something Atlasia desperately needs.

@Napoleon I know to say there's no love lost between you and Marokai is a great understatement, as well as everyone around knows my own history with Marokai was difficult at many stages, but please do not insult his experience in lawmaking activity, since it's far wider than yours.

[Napoleon]

Kalwejt, you might notice all I've done is dismiss Marokai's insults and lack of self-awareness.

[Marokai Backbeat]

The idea that this bill wastes anything is preposterous. Regions should have a say over their Senators, and Senators should be forced to some extent to be kept in touch with their constituents. We have had plenty of instances of inactive Senators that get elected purely on flukes and do nothing, or Senators that don't perform very well even if they are active. We have a citizenry that feels completely disconnected from the lawmaking activities of Atlasia at-large and could use any excuse to get active on any level, and aside from this last session, this Senate could certainly uses plenty of reasons to actually legislate more.

We got way more done before you came, trust me. You must have been a citizen "disconnected from lawmaking activity" in order to make such a preposterous, egotistical statement.

It's always nice when you make statements so patently absurd that I don't even need to seriously respond to them. I would just politely suggest you take a look at my history around here before saying that I have ever been "disconnected from lawmaking."

[Napoleon]

The idea that this bill wastes anything is preposterous. Regions should have a say over their Senators, and Senators should be forced to some extent to be kept in touch with their constituents. We have had plenty of instances of inactive Senators that get elected purely on flukes and do nothing, or Senators that don't perform very well even if they are active. We have a citizenry that feels completely disconnected from the lawmaking activities of Atlasia at-large and could use any excuse to get active on any level, and aside from this last session, this Senate could certainly uses plenty of reasons to actually legislate more.

We got way more done before you came, trust me. You must have been a citizen "disconnected from lawmaking activity" in order to make such a preposterous, egotistical statement.

It's always nice when you make statements so patently absurd that I don't even need to seriously respond to them. I would just politely suggest you take a look at my history around here before saying that I have ever been "disconnected from lawmaking."

So you were simply lying to stroke your ego?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Kalwejt, you might notice all I've done is dismiss Marokai's insults and lack of self-awareness.

Call me dumb but I don't see anything in his post you've quoted that was warranting or is explaining your reaction.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

The idea that this bill wastes anything is preposterous. Regions should have a say over their Senators, and Senators should be forced to some extent to be kept in touch with their constituents. We have had plenty of instances of inactive Senators that get elected purely on flukes and do nothing, or Senators that don't perform very well even if they are active. We have a citizenry that feels completely disconnected from the lawmaking activities of Atlasia at-large and could use any excuse to get active on any level, and aside from this last session, this Senate could certainly uses plenty of reasons to actually legislate more.

We got way more done before you came, trust me. You must have been a citizen "disconnected from lawmaking activity" in order to make such a preposterous, egotistical statement.

It's always nice when you make statements so patently absurd that I don't even need to seriously respond to them. I would just politely suggest you take a look at my history around here before saying that I have ever been "disconnected from lawmaking."

So you were simply lying to stroke your ego?

Seriously, man, what the hell? Marokai simply stated an obvious fact that Atlasia had, during it's history, a lot of inactive Senators or those who weren't active enough.

Are you going to question that obvious historical truth? Or you think he was refeering to you. Well, in second face, please understand once for all the world is not resolving around you.

[Napoleon]

The idea that this bill wastes anything is preposterous. Regions should have a say over their Senators, and Senators should be forced to some extent to be kept in touch with their constituents. We have had plenty of instances of inactive Senators that get elected purely on flukes and do nothing, or Senators that don't perform very well even if they are active. We have a citizenry that feels completely disconnected from the lawmaking activities of Atlasia at-large and could use any excuse to get active on any level, and aside from this last session, this Senate could certainly uses plenty of reasons to actually legislate more.

We got way more done before you came, trust me. You must have been a citizen "disconnected from lawmaking activity" in order to make such a preposterous, egotistical statement.

It's always nice when you make statements so patently absurd that I don't even need to seriously respond to them. I would just politely suggest you take a look at my history around here before saying that I have ever been "disconnected from lawmaking."

So you were simply lying to stroke your ego?

Seriously, man, what the hell? Marokai simply stated an obvious fact that Atlasia had, during it's history, a lot of inactive Senators or those who weren't active enough.

Are you going to question that obvious historical truth? Or you think he was refeering to you. Well, in second face, please understand once for all the world is not resolving around you.

Claiming that this session has been more productive (surely saying that because he's a Senator now) is untruthful considering the two past sessions where objectively more has been accomplished and even debated. Marokai may want to feel like his presence has revived a dead Senate or something like that but it just isn't the case.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

[Napoleon]

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

The idea that this bill wastes anything is preposterous. Regions should have a say over their Senators, and Senators should be forced to some extent to be kept in touch with their constituents. We have had plenty of instances of inactive Senators that get elected purely on flukes and do nothing, or Senators that don't perform very well even if they are active. We have a citizenry that feels completely disconnected from the lawmaking activities of Atlasia at-large and could use any excuse to get active on any level, and aside from this last session, this Senate could certainly uses plenty of reasons to actually legislate more.

We got way more done before you came, trust me. You must have been a citizen "disconnected from lawmaking activity" in order to make such a preposterous, egotistical statement.

It's always nice when you make statements so patently absurd that I don't even need to seriously respond to them. I would just politely suggest you take a look at my history around here before saying that I have ever been "disconnected from lawmaking."

So you were simply lying to stroke your ego?

Seriously, man, what the hell? Marokai simply stated an obvious fact that Atlasia had, during it's history, a lot of inactive Senators or those who weren't active enough.

Are you going to question that obvious historical truth? Or you think he was refeering to you. Well, in second case, please understand once for all the world is not resolving around you.

Claiming that this session has been more productive (surely saying that because he's a Senator now) is untruthful considering the two past sessions where objectively more has been accomplished and even debated. Marokai may want to feel like his presence has revived a dead Senate or something like that but it just isn't the case.

Well, you've become quite agressive since Marokai joined us in the Senate.

FTR, I didn't support Marokai and I campaigned for his opponent, but I'm not going to continue fighting once we're working together.

Since you seem to be totally consumed with your personal dislike toward him and since you're letting that feeling dominate everything, ask yourself who's more responsible for this session being, according to your words (and I don't think I can agree) "less productive"? Do we really need this drama?

That said, I found Marokai ready to work together on issues, while I can't say the same about you.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

The last session kicked things in gear, but the session before that, for several sessions, was a wasteland of legislative accomplishment. Also: more legislation = more Senate activity. Connect the other dots however you like but I fail to see how you could possibly interpret me arguing in favor of engaging the citizens more directly on legislative issues as me taking credit for Senate activity. Turn the hostility down to about a 4 or so.

[Napoleon]

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

The last session kicked things in gear, but the session before that, for several sessions, was a wasteland of legislative accomplishment. Also: more legislation = more Senate activity. Connect the other dots however you like but I fail to see how you could possibly interpret me arguing in favor of engaging the citizens more directly on legislative issues as me taking credit for Senate activity. Turn the hostility down to about a 4 or so.

So are you talking about this session or the previous one? Choose your words better. You have already made enough false statements in this thread so surely you understand why I expect you to say things like that.

The only actual reason for perceived activity increases is the election of PPT bgwah, who is committed to moving the Senate along. We haven't had a shortage of things to debate even before then.

[Napoleon]

The idea that this bill wastes anything is preposterous. Regions should have a say over their Senators, and Senators should be forced to some extent to be kept in touch with their constituents. We have had plenty of instances of inactive Senators that get elected purely on flukes and do nothing, or Senators that don't perform very well even if they are active. We have a citizenry that feels completely disconnected from the lawmaking activities of Atlasia at-large and could use any excuse to get active on any level, and aside from this last session, this Senate could certainly uses plenty of reasons to actually legislate more.

We got way more done before you came, trust me. You must have been a citizen "disconnected from lawmaking activity" in order to make such a preposterous, egotistical statement.

It's always nice when you make statements so patently absurd that I don't even need to seriously respond to them. I would just politely suggest you take a look at my history around here before saying that I have ever been "disconnected from lawmaking."

So you were simply lying to stroke your ego?

Seriously, man, what the hell? Marokai simply stated an obvious fact that Atlasia had, during it's history, a lot of inactive Senators or those who weren't active enough.

Are you going to question that obvious historical truth? Or you think he was refeering to you. Well, in second case, please understand once for all the world is not resolving around you.

Claiming that this session has been more productive (surely saying that because he's a Senator now) is untruthful considering the two past sessions where objectively more has been accomplished and even debated. Marokai may want to feel like his presence has revived a dead Senate or something like that but it just isn't the case.

Well, you've become quite agressive since Marokai joined us in the Senate.

FTR, I didn't support Marokai and I campaigned for his opponent, but I'm not going to continue fighting once we're working together.

Since you seem to be totally consumed with your personal dislike toward him and since you're letting that feeling dominate everything, ask yourself who's more responsible for this session being, according to your words (and I don't think I can agree) "less productive"? Do we really need this drama?

That said, I found Marokai ready to work together on issues, while I can't say the same about you.

Marokai can lie but the world ends if I get a little agitated by it? Yeah, I think I get it dude.

Here's the problem: Many of the complaints that come from you or your side are petty and difficult to indulge. Several of you vote in a bloc almost constantly. And when you and Napoleon and others make up your mind? The only time you actually change it is from Aye to Nay. If I actually thought I could win you over by spending time here actually arguing in this bill's favor (which I've done multiple times up to this point) I would do so. I know that I can't.

You've made up your mind. Napoleon has made up his mind. Not only on this bill, but several others, and it will be like this in the future. Your positions are always the unmovable ones. You are the one that always must be compromised to, and you are the ones that always do the shooting down. It is frustrating and completely impossible to actually navigate through.

There are people in this body that are interested in, and moved by, debate. I am among them. I don't think some others are.

I used this post as an example. Lies or falsehoods are in bold.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

The last session kicked things in gear, but the session before that, for several sessions, was a wasteland of legislative accomplishment. Also: more legislation = more Senate activity. Connect the other dots however you like but I fail to see how you could possibly interpret me arguing in favor of engaging the citizens more directly on legislative issues as me taking credit for Senate activity. Turn the hostility down to about a 4 or so.

I'm sorry, but introducing 30 bills that have to be completely rewritten in order to be compatible with existing law does not make for an active senate.  It just makes for a senate that gets frustrated and burnt out because they have nothing to do but busywork.  Other senators shouldn't have to correct mistakes in your bills for you.

You and Duke already made comments bitching about my "inactivity" and how great it would have been if he had won the presidency so he could rubber stamp your legislative agenda.  It would have been a disaster because you have shown no willingness to fix your proposed bills when glaring mistakes are pointed out... instead lecturing everybody else about how active a senator YOU are and how awful everybody else is.

To bgwah and Kalwejt:  Send this bill to me if you wish.  This waste of time will not have my signature.  You can't legislate grass roots... if you try to, it becomes a top-down affair and you end up with the Tea Party.

[bgwah]

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

The last session kicked things in gear, but the session before that, for several sessions, was a wasteland of legislative accomplishment. Also: more legislation = more Senate activity. Connect the other dots however you like but I fail to see how you could possibly interpret me arguing in favor of engaging the citizens more directly on legislative issues as me taking credit for Senate activity. Turn the hostility down to about a 4 or so.

The difference is that I am the best PPT ever!!

[Ban my account ffs!]

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

The last session kicked things in gear, but the session before that, for several sessions, was a wasteland of legislative accomplishment. Also: more legislation = more Senate activity. Connect the other dots however you like but I fail to see how you could possibly interpret me arguing in favor of engaging the citizens more directly on legislative issues as me taking credit for Senate activity. Turn the hostility down to about a 4 or so.

The difference is that I am the best PPT ever!!

To be fair to NCY, I think he did a damn fine job considering he has dial-up internet and an aging computer.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

The last session kicked things in gear, but the session before that, for several sessions, was a wasteland of legislative accomplishment. Also: more legislation = more Senate activity. Connect the other dots however you like but I fail to see how you could possibly interpret me arguing in favor of engaging the citizens more directly on legislative issues as me taking credit for Senate activity. Turn the hostility down to about a 4 or so.

The difference is that I am the best PPT ever!!

Oh please, we both know that Bacon King was superior to any of us.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Veto this if you want to, Snowguy. But it's goddamn petty of you to do so for a bill that is so uncontroversial and so peripheral and so optional. The way which you and Napoleon treat these things with such a fire and brimstone attitude is a hilarious overreaction.

The idea that I'm stubborn to changes on my bills is also objectively untrue. It is a lie. It is nothing but a lie. Look at everything I've proposed here that we've debated so far. I have compromised and accepted amendments on nearly all of them!

The empowerment Amendment, specifically, was rewritten by Duke and I to suit Napoleon! I offered to accept Bgwah's compromises on that bill. On the shell corporations act, I accepted compromises from Yankee. On the wage bill, that Bgwah wrote, I stood in the way of no amendments to it. On the national initiative system, I accepted Bgwah's compromised terms for getting something on the ballot. The caucus Act that we passed, passed because I accepted Bgwah's revisions. On the ratification regionalization Amendment, I accepted Yankee's amendment to slightly restrict options to the regions, even if I didn't want to do that myself.

When people opposed my ideas, I reached out to them in asking if there was any way I could get their votes. Several times, I would get a response that says "No, under no circumstances will I vote for this." Who, exactly is stubborn here? Perhaps you don't know. Perhaps it's because you don't hang around these parts very much. But spreading obvious, checkable falsehoods is over the line.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

It is very difficult to credit the PPT of a Senate with the quantity of the legislation considered or judge a PPT success by such. The PPT can't make people write bills and debate them with substance. He can try to spur debate, but such can be ignored or rejected as my attempts often were (casts some quick glances at certain nefarious individuals in the room). Part of the problem is that we seem to have taken much longer on bills over the past year inspite of contrarian efforts by each PPT (Though I will credit bgwah, he has far more of an "I don't give a damn" attitude when it comes to ending legislation. Fearmongering about bgwah trashing the CSS is what helped expedidate critical PM conversations that led to it's completion. ), that is mostly do to a seemingly lower activity level on the part of a good number of Senators and the lack of interest in bills that aren't there own. It's non regional and non-partisan. HappyWarrior, Eraserhead, and RowanBrandon were all just as annoyingly frustrating with their activity levels.  

If it is all because of the PPT then there hasn't been a PPT since who has matched the cycle of MasterJedi-Franzl from May to December of 2009.

I think it has to do more with the quality of Senators and proportion of whom are "legislative workaholics".

Edit: To bring post in compliance with the Marokai Blue Credit and Attention Suppression Act of 2011.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Now now, Yankee. Don't give me credit for anything.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Fixed

[Marokai Backbeat]

Phew!