SENATE BILL: Regional Legislative Petitions Act (law'd)

[bgwah]

I'm giving this the forum affairs slot. Close enough!

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Sponsors: Marokai, Duke

[Marokai Backbeat]

Another proposal to incite citizens to become more directly involved! There can never be enough of those!

I think this is a great idea, not only for activity's sake, and not even also just for increased legislative debate, but also for the sake of holding regional Senators accountable. Many times, regional Senators can be very inactive, or not properly represent their region the way they should, and this bill allows the citizens of a region, when some feel they are not being properly represented, to make their voices heard.

It increases activity, it increases legislative debate, it leads to greater accountability and representation, and best of all it's absolutely harmless. A purely expansionary proposal with no complicated edges or sacrifices elsewhere. If there's one thing we need to do, it's increase activity on a regional level. Let's give this a shot.

[Napoleon]

Citizens have enough trouble using the simpler approach to this already available.

[bgwah]

Not sure if this will actually be utilized, but I don't have a problem with it I guess.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I see nothing wrong with this.


Just as long as people can still use the "old fashion methods", too.

[bgwah]

I am bringing this to a final vote. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain.


Aye I guess.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Aye

[Mopsus]

Aye

[Marokai Backbeat]

Aye.

One of my proposals, being uncontroversial? Say it isn't so.

[Napoleon]

Nay

[Marokai Backbeat]

Nay

Phew! I was afraid this was going to pass without you opposing it!

[Napoleon]

Nay

Phew! I was afraid this was going to pass without you opposing it!

Really? I have a history of voting against completely useless bills.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Nay

Phew! I was afraid this was going to pass without you opposing it!

Really? I have a history of voting against completely useless bills.

Is that when you are or aren't voting while high?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Really? I have a history of voting against completely useless bills.

Wow, this is truly amusing, Sir.

You said recently that doing what your constituents wants you to do is your first concern as Northeast Senator, their very representative.

You said so during debate on National Initiative, claiming Northeast voters are against it, so you voted against. Well,  apparently NI passed in Northeast (like in every other region). Conclusion? You better be careful when you're claiming you're speaking on behalf of your constituents in general without doing a proper consultation.

But regarding this bill, it's all about making a Senator carrying out an expectations of his very constituents. So what's the problem? Is Marokai being a sponsor the real problem? Or you're just embarrassing yourself again while high?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Aye

[Napoleon]

Really? I have a history of voting against completely useless bills.

Wow, this is truly amusing, Sir.

You said recently that doing what your constituents wants you to do is your first concern as Northeast Senator, their very representative.

You said so during debate on National Initiative, claiming Northeast voters are against it, so you voted against. Well,  apparently NI passed in Northeast (like in every other region). Conclusion? You better be careful when you're claiming you're speaking on behalf of your constituents in general without doing a proper consultation.

But regarding this bill, it's all about making a Senator carrying out an expectations of his very constituents. So what's the problem? Is Marokai being a sponsor the real problem? Or you're just embarrassing yourself again while high?

Passed? Uh no. Plus those who spoke to me were mostly against. Why do you care anyway? You aren't even in my region. If my Constituents want something, they can ask. I'm not going to need a stupid law for that and if I don't feel like introducing something I wont do it. I doubt anyone will use this at all. I have enough trouble getting PM responses. I would be insulted if some asshole started petitioning me.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Really? I have a history of voting against completely useless bills.

Wow, this is truly amusing, Sir.

You said recently that doing what your constituents wants you to do is your first concern as Northeast Senator, their very representative.

You said so during debate on National Initiative, claiming Northeast voters are against it, so you voted against. Well,  apparently NI passed in Northeast (like in every other region). Conclusion? You better be careful when you're claiming you're speaking on behalf of your constituents in general without doing a proper consultation.

But regarding this bill, it's all about making a Senator carrying out an expectations of his very constituents. So what's the problem? Is Marokai being a sponsor the real problem? Or you're just embarrassing yourself again while high?

Passed? Uh no. Plus those who spoke to me were mostly against. Why do you care anyway? You aren't even in my region. If my Constituents want something, they can ask. I'm not going to need a stupid law for that and if I don't feel like introducing something I wont do it. I doubt anyone will use this at all. I have enough trouble getting PM responses. I would be insulted if some asshole started petitioning me.

1. It's tied and fails only because one voter later modyfied his aye vote, thus invalidating this. I wonder who approached him. Too bad opponents couldn't play fair.
2. Excuse me, some asshole? That's your approachment toward a constituents?

[Napoleon]

No, because my constituents aren't petitioning me. I also expect they won't and that other region's Senators won't get petitioned. However, it's easier to ask me for a service than to try and petition me with 25% signatures. I don't even know if that'd be possible in my region.

Point is, I've never had a constituent ask me to introduce a bill without me approaching them about it first. While I'd like to see that change, this isn't the way to go about. As I saaid, there are simpler methods to use already available.

What does this solve? Are regional Senators ignoring their constituents? Can those people not use the Initiative process? This bill is totally useless. If a Senator can't do his job on his own he shouldn't get voted out. The lack of enforcement also means I will ignore any and all petitions.

[Ban my account ffs!]

This bill is nothing but mindless busywork taking up a slot.  It will not benefit Atlasia in any way and it will not increase citizen involvement. 

It will just add easily forgettable legislation to the rolls and will never be used.  Not when any citizen can approach any at large senator or their regional senator to have their proposal introduced into the senate.

I could understand if you were restricted to only petitioning your regional senator and they said no to introducing the bill, but it had significant popular support... but that simply isn't the case.

I am tempted to veto this bill simply because it is a waste of time.

Marokai:  I'm sure you're not gonna be happy to read this at all.  I understand you are trying as much as possible to get people more involved in the game.  I just don't think this bill will do it.

[Marokai Backbeat]

The idea that this bill wastes anything is preposterous. Regions should have a say over their Senators, and Senators should be forced to some extent to be kept in touch with their constituents. We have had plenty of instances of inactive Senators that get elected purely on flukes and do nothing, or Senators that don't perform very well even if they are active. We have a citizenry that feels completely disconnected from the lawmaking activities of Atlasia at-large and could use any excuse to get active on any level, and aside from this last session, this Senate could certainly uses plenty of reasons to actually legislate more.

I can see how someone can shrug their shoulders to this and say "Yeah sure, fine" in some vaguely apathetic fashion. I can't see any reason for someone to get out their soapbox and preach against this as some sort of evil waste of time that stands in the way of so many things and grrr grr grrr isn't it so horrible.

What you people seem to call "busywork" lately, I call "being responsible in your office and doing your goddamn jobs." And the idea that you can just declare this as ineffective before even passing it is hilarious. Are you a time traveler, Mr President?

This Senate seems to have such an abject hatred toward any expansionary proposals. Anything that apparently doesn't specifically address a pre-existing thing gets nowhere (and even when something does; it gets nowhere) because apparently giving people more options and more avenues toward getting involved and simply more things to do in general is a waste of time.

It amazes me how even the most harmless thing in the world suddenly becomes incredibly destructive to you people.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Last I checked, Atlasia is a representative republic.  You elect senators to represent you... not to enact the will of a coordinated 25% of one region.

On those grounds alone, this bill is a bad idea.  No senator should ever be forced to propose anything he doesn't want to.  If the people have a problem with that, it is their responsibility to elect a different senator.  Or they can go to a different senator with their proposal.

WHen I was a senator, I never turned down a constituent that asked to propose a bill on their behalf.  I think I was asked 2 times.

The only way you're going to really get the citizens involved in the process is by making such activity compulsory.  And that ain't gonna happen... and proposing bills like this in the meantime won't make it any better.  It just wastes a valuable senate slot when there are many other bills in the queue.

I will be doing my goddamn job when I send this bill back to you.  For your bill's sake, I hope you can do your goddamn job and get a super majority to back you on it.

[Marokai Backbeat]

When half of the Senate is as fickle as they are, I'd say I have my "goddamn job" stacked against me.

Your argument is hilarious though. It'll be a huge waste of time that takes up so much space in the Senate! That.. no one will ever use?

I don't understand this weird hostility to purely expansionary and peripheral proposals like this. And the amount of times one of my or someone elses' proposals was fine, fine, fine, up until the final vote, then OH MY GOD IT WILL DESTROY THE GAME. I haven't been in office for two months yet and this has already become an insane and clear pattern.

Why don't we just line up all my proposals in some domino line so you can all vote them down all at the same time and we can move on? Then maybe a couple months later you can propose them as your own ideas and call yourselves the real reformers.

[Ban my account ffs!]

When half of the Senate is as fickle as they are, I'd say I have my "goddamn job" stacked against me.

Your argument is hilarious though. It'll be a huge waste of time that takes up so much space in the Senate! That.. no one will ever use?

I don't understand this weird hostility to purely expansionary and peripheral proposals like this. And the amount of times one of my or someone elses' proposals was fine, fine, fine, up until the final vote, then OH MY GOD IT WILL DESTROY THE GAME. I haven't been in office for two months yet and this has already become an insane and clear pattern.

Why don't we just line up all my proposals in some domino line so you can all vote them down all at the same time and we can move on? Then maybe a couple months later you can propose them as your own ideas and call yourselves the real reformers.

I don't subscribe to the philosophy of "let's legislate it because hey.. it can't hurt!" which is the basis of your entire argument here.  My argument is that it is a waste of time, it takes up a slot, preventing more pressing matters from being discussed in the senate, and that if it is passed, it will do nothing to improve citizen involvement.  That can be reasonably extrapolated from the language of the bill... no time travel is necessary.

If you want to act like a martyr and a victim and pretend I'm out to get you, go ahead.  It will only reflect poorly on you and you won't accomplish anything you want to.

But I'd suggest rather than jumping to conclusions, you take my criticism of this bill for what it is:  Criticism of this bill.  I'm not going to blanket veto all of your bills.  And I won't do it to spite you.  I will only do it if I think it is a bad bill or it needs to be reworked.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

How is this bill harmful? It simply allows people to propose bills if they can get the support. There's nothing destruct about it. Oh well. Come January, it's no longer my problem.

[Marokai Backbeat]

But I'd suggest rather than jumping to conclusions, you take my criticism of this bill for what it is:  Criticism of this bill.  I'm not going to blanket veto all of your bills.  And I won't do it to spite you.  I will only do it if I think it is a bad bill or it needs to be reworked.

Here's the problem: Many of the complaints that come from you or your side are petty and difficult to indulge. Several of you vote in a bloc almost constantly. And when you and Napoleon and others make up your mind? The only time you actually change it is from Aye to Nay. If I actually thought I could win you over by spending time here actually arguing in this bill's favor (which I've done multiple times up to this point) I would do so. I know that I can't.

You've made up your mind. Napoleon has made up his mind. Not only on this bill, but several others, and it will be like this in the future. Your positions are always the unmovable ones. You are the one that always must be compromised to, and you are the ones that always do the shooting down. It is frustrating and completely impossible to actually navigate through.

There are people in this body that are interested in, and moved by, debate. I am among them. I don't think some others are.