Raising taxes on the poor is a good idea

[Link]

Ireland: truly an economic model to emulate.

(yeah, I can't be bothered to contribute more than a cheap shot).

LOL, fair enough. I don't particularly think Ireland is a good country to emulate either. But its corporate tax policy is probably the only that has kept it from almost being another Iceland 2 years ago.

The analogy makes no sense on any level.  Ireland is a tiny country of 4.5 million that attracted the European headquarters of American companies (ie Microsoft) that sell their products to the rest of Europe which has 857 million people total.  In order for your analogy to work you would need to have a company that is 20, 30 perhaps 40 times the size of Microsoft selling its products to a first world population of 24 billion to move its headquarters to the US in order to get per capita Irish type corporate tax  numbers in a country of 330 million.  In other words Republican fantasy land.

Where in my argument did I say that the US would get the exact same corporate tax revenues per capita as Ireland?

Oh you never said EXACT SAME but you implied we should emulate them...

Also in addition to that the Irish collect more corporate taxes per capita than the US does when we have a top rate of 35% and the Irish have a 12.5% rate. Why does the rate stay at 35%? Because people are stupid!

There is no way we can come close to replicating the Irish experience.  We are a country of 330 million people.  Ireland has a population of a large US city (ie Houston) that sells into a broader European market of over 800 million people.  A more apt analogy would be if a bunch of fortune five hundred companies moved to Houston and only paid a Houston tax and no federal taxes but still sold to the rest of the country (well actually over double the size of the country).  Then you divided the Houston tax by the population of Houston and got a per capita corporate tax revenue.  Sure then you could drop rates and still have a higher per capita corporate tax revenue.  Like I said, fantasy land.

[Link]

Also, I hope you do realize that Microsoft isn't the only company in the world. "A company 20, 30 perhaps 40 times the size of Microsoft" how about 20, 30, perhaps 40 companies the size of Microsoft or even 80 companies half the size of Microsoft. Or did you actually think that the US would only attract 1 company to tax domicile in the US after a reduction?

I hope you realize Microsoft isn't the only multibillion dollar US corporation with its European headquarters in Ireland.  I listed a few, Intel, Dell, Google, Ebay, Apple, etc.  So you would need to attract companies with a total market cap 20, 30, perhaps 40 times the size of Intel, Dell, Google, Ebay, Apple. et al COMBINE to replicate the Irish experience here in America.  It doesn't make any sense.

[Wonkish1]

Oh you never said EXACT SAME but you implied we should emulate them...

Also in addition to that the Irish collect more corporate taxes per capita than the US does when we have a top rate of 35% and the Irish have a 12.5% rate. Why does the rate stay at 35%? Because people are stupid!

There is no way we can come close to replicating the Irish experience.  We are a country of 330 million people.  Ireland has a population of a large US city (ie Houston) that sells into a broader European market of over 800 million people.  A more apt analogy would be if a bunch of fortune five hundred companies moved to Houston and only paid a Houston tax and no federal taxes but still sold to the rest of the country (well actually over double the size of the country).  Then you divided the Houston tax by the population of Houston and got a per capita corporate tax revenue.  Sure then you could drop rates and still have a hire per capita corporate tax revenue.  Like I said, fantasy land.

In corporate taxation of course we should emulate them. They cut corporate tax rates and had a absolutely massive increase in receipts. Now do I think that we're going to have an increase in receipts at the scale of Ireland? Of course not. As you said we already have 330 million people. But do I think tax receipts will go up? I'm 100% positive.

I get your argument about population. It is true. But it still doesn't overcome mine. There is nothing in your argument that says that corporate tax receipts would go down if corporate tax rates were reduced. The only argument your making is that revenues wouldn't go up by the same degree as in Ireland. Well duh, but so...

[Wonkish1]

Also, I hope you do realize that Microsoft isn't the only company in the world. "A company 20, 30 perhaps 40 times the size of Microsoft" how about 20, 30, perhaps 40 companies the size of Microsoft or even 80 companies half the size of Microsoft. Or did you actually think that the US would only attract 1 company to tax domicile in the US after a reduction?

I hope you realize Microsoft isn't the only multibillion dollar US corporation with its European headquarters in Ireland.  I listed a few, Intel, Dell, Google, Ebay, Apple, etc.  So you would need to attract companies with a total market cap 20, 30, perhaps 40 times the size of Intel, Dell, Google, Ebay, Apple. et al COMBINE to replicate the Irish experience here in America.  It doesn't make any sense.

Well first of all again you wont get the same degree of increase as in Ireland, but you will still get an increase.

And you can easily beat the Irish nominally. You get back all of the companies in Ireland plus Hong Kong, China, Singapore, and the UAE just to name a few.

[Link]

You get back all of the companies in Ireland plus Hong Kong, China, Singapore, and the UAE just to name a few.

Where on earth do you get this stuff?!

Wonkish1 your problem is you simply do not know the FACTS.  It is not a matter of us "getting back" all the companies in Irleand.  Microsoft, Intel, Dell, Ebay, Google, and Apple have not relocated their American headquarters to Ireland or Hong Kong, or China or Singapore.  Frankly I'm not aware of a single company that has moved its mainland US headquarters directly to Ireland for tax reasons.   That is a Republican myth.  What they HAVE done is chosen to place their EUROPEAN headquarters in Ireland.  Some companies like Amazon chose to go with another tiny city state Luxembourg.  Ireland is NOT competing with the United States for large corporate headquarters.  It is competing with other European countries.  In fact I may actually be wrong.  I think Luxembourg poached Ebay from Ireland.  Luxembourg is a country of 500,000 people.  You could have used them in your fantasy math to make an even more compelling case for your Republican friends.  So our corporate tax rate compared to Irelands is not going to cause Apple to move to Ireland.  This is a ridiculous notion.

Ireland lowered its tax rate because it has few (if any) gigantic multinational companies.  Germany doesn't have this problem and if you will notice it is not lowering its tax rate to compete with Ireland.  It would be a net detriment to German tax receipts if it lowered its corporate tax rate to poach a few jobs from little Ireland.  Tax policy is not one size fits all.  It's more complicated than that.   I know things like 9-9-9 are simplistic and enjoyable to think about, but unfortunately the real world is complicated and you have to actually do some research to come up with effective tax policy.

[Wonkish1]

Where on earth do you get this stuff?!

Wonkish1 your problem is you simply do not know the FACTS.  It is not a matter of us "getting back" all the companies in Irleand.  Microsoft, Intel, Dell, Ebay, Google, and Apple have not relocated their American headquarters to Ireland or Hong Kong, or China or Singapore.  Frankly I'm not aware of a single company that has moved its mainland US headquarters directly to Ireland for tax reasons.   That is a Republican myth.  What they HAVE done is chosen to place their EUROPEAN headquarters in Ireland.  Some companies like Amazon chose to go with another tiny city state Luxembourg.  Ireland is NOT competing with the United States for large corporate headquarters.  It is competing with other European countries.  In fact I may actually be wrong.  I think Luxembourg poached Ebay from Ireland.  Luxembourg is a country of 500,000 people.  You could have used them in your fantasy math to make an even more compelling case for your Republican friends.  So our corporate tax rate compared to Irelands is not going to cause Apple to move to Ireland.  This is a ridiculous notion.

Ireland lowered its tax rate because it has few (if any) gigantic multinational companies.  Germany doesn't have this problem and if you will notice it is not lowering its tax rate to compete with Ireland.  It would be a net detriment to German tax receipts if it lowered its corporate tax rate to poach a few jobs from little Ireland.  Tax policy is not one size fits all.  It's more complicated than that.   I know things like 9-9-9 are simplistic and enjoyable to think about, but unfortunately the real world is complicated and you have to actually do some research to come up with effective tax policy.

What you don't understand is that companies place the real income producing assets of their international firms in the subsidiaries in the countries that have the most attractive tax rates. That is defacto tax domiciling. The reason they don't move their real headquarters out of the United States is because they want access to American capital markets which are the best in the world.

So essentially what you have is official headquarters in the US and tax headquarters in other countries like Ireland, Luxembourg, Hong Kong, UAE, Singapore, China, etc. It allows the companies to get the best of both worlds. Taxes in one country and capital markets in another.

[Link]

In corporate taxation of course we should emulate them. They cut corporate tax rates and had a absolutely massive increase in receipts.

WONKISH1!  Ireland is a country of 4.5 million with no domestic companies that are comparable to Microsoft, Google, Apple, or Daimler.  If we slashed our corporate tax rates we would go 100s of billions of dollars into the hole.  We would need to attract corporations 20, 30, 40 times the size of Microsoft, Google, and Apple just to make up for the 100s of billions of dollars we lost from that zany tax plan and show a net gain.  Those companies do not exist.  Ireland was not giving up 100s of billions of domestically generated Euros when it slashed its corporate tax rate.  It was a poor tiny country.  It had to slash its rates to get gigantic companies like Google to open a European headquarters there.  Otherwise all they would have is Guinness and cardboard boxes.  In fact I don't even think they have the cardboard box thing anymore.  I believe the Dublin company Smurfit is now headquartered in the US!

[Link]

So essentially what you have is official headquarters in the US and tax headquarters in other countries like Ireland

Out of all the companies I have listed in this thread please list for me which one of these companies has their global "tax headquarters" in Ireland... Microsoft, Intel, Dell, Google, Apple, Ebay, Walmart, Daimler.  Again where do you get this stuff?

[Wonkish1]

In corporate taxation of course we should emulate them. They cut corporate tax rates and had a absolutely massive increase in receipts.

WONKISH1!  Ireland is a country of 4.5 million with no domestic companies that are comparable to Microsoft, Google, Apple, or Daimler.  If we slashed our corporate tax rates we would go 100s of billions of dollars into the hole.  We would need to attract corporations 20, 30, 40 times the size of Microsoft, Google, and Apple just to make up for the 100s of billions of dollars we lost from that zany tax plan and show a net gain.  Those companies do not exist.  Ireland was not giving up 100s of billions of domestically generated Euros when it slashed its corporate tax rate.  It was a poor tiny country.  It had to slash its rates to get gigantic companies like Google to open a European headquarters there.  Otherwise all they would have is Guinness and cardboard boxes.  In fact I don't even think they have the cardboard box thing anymore.  I believe the Dublin company Smurfit is now headquartered in the US!

No your wrong. We wouldn't lose 100s of billions if we cut the corporate rate. I think you way overestimate how much US corporate profits actually get declared in the US. And I think you also way overestimate how many small businesses report corporate taxes. In both cases, they are way, way lower than they could be.

When I read financial statements and read the amount domestic taxes paid out the shear amount of difference between a firms GAAP earnings and domestic tax earnings are just astounding. It doesn't take to much approximation to realize that if you were able to report all those earnings in the US under a much lower rate tax revenues would sky rocket.

Furthermore, as I mentioned above and you didn't address. Practically all smaller businesses that S Corp or LLC report little or no corporate taxes. They prefer to run the firm break even and take out everything as ordinary income. You cut corporate taxes and you'll see a lot more people electing to report more corporate income.

Combine those 2 together and there is no question that corporate tax revenues would rise if you cut corporate rates. And that is without even taking into account the fact that you would see increasing tax revenues from better economic performance. A cut in corporate taxes means more hires, lower prices, and more capital reinvestment. That has a compounding effect and has leads to a higher velocity of money. Both of those drive revenues much higher.

[Wonkish1]

So essentially what you have is official headquarters in the US and tax headquarters in other countries like Ireland

Out of all the companies I have listed in this thread please list for me which one of these companies has their global "tax headquarters" in Ireland... Microsoft, Intel, Dell, Google, Apple, Ebay, Walmart, Daimler.  Again where do you get this stuff?

I know for a fact that Google reports practically every single cent of its income outside of the US and primarily in Ireland.

No company calls it their "tax headquarters", but essentially when you transfer all of your income filings reporting profits to a subsidiary in another country then yes that pretty much is your "tax headquarters".

[Link]

No your wrong. We wouldn't lose 100s of billions if we cut the corporate rate. I think you way overestimate how much US corporate profits actually get declared in the US.

Corporate tax revenues for one year alone are $191 billion in a weak economy.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/tg911.aspx

[Wonkish1]

No your wrong. We wouldn't lose 100s of billions if we cut the corporate rate. I think you way overestimate how much US corporate profits actually get declared in the US.

Corporate tax revenues for one year alone are $191 billion in a weak economy.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/tg911.aspx

And you think that is high? Total corporate earnings in the world are in the 10s of trillions.

I mean do you actually thing that total corporation earnings this year just in the US are about $600-650 billion? Really?

[Link]

No your wrong. We wouldn't lose 100s of billions if we cut the corporate rate. I think you way overestimate how much US corporate profits actually get declared in the US.

Corporate tax revenues for one year alone are $191 billion in a weak economy.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/tg911.aspx

And you think that is high? Total corporate earnings in the world are in the 10s of trillions.

I know that a ludicrous plan to slash the corporate tax rate will result in $100s of billions of dollars of lost revenue that cannot be made up for by companies 20, 30,  40 times the size of Microsoft, Google, or Apple simply relocating one of their headquarters to the US the way the aforementioned companies did in Ireland.

Ireland was a poor tiny country with meager corporate profits.  Slashing the taxes on them in order to attract big fish like Google, Dell and Microsoft made sense.  Going 100s of billions of dollars in the hole in hopes a mythical nonexistent company will relocate their headquarters to the US makes no sense.

Ireland is a country of 4.5 million taxing gigantic companies that are selling into a market of 800+ million.  We are a country of 330 million.  We can only domestically tax companies selling into a market less than half the size of the market Ireland is selling into.  The fact that we would have to cough up 100 billions of dollars in tax revenue to even implement this loonie plan means we would have a enormous net drop in tax revenue with no mythical white knight foreign corporation to come to our rescue.

[Wonkish1]

No your wrong. We wouldn't lose 100s of billions if we cut the corporate rate. I think you way overestimate how much US corporate profits actually get declared in the US.

Corporate tax revenues for one year alone are $191 billion in a weak economy.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/tg911.aspx

And you think that is high? Total corporate earnings in the world are in the 10s of trillions.

I know that a ludicrous plan to slash the corporate tax rate will result in $100s of billions of dollars of lost revenue that cannot be made up for by companies 20, 30,  40 times the size of Microsoft, Google, or Apple simply relocating one of their headquarters to the US the way the aforementioned companies did in Ireland.

Ireland was a poor tiny country with meager corporate profits.  Slashing the taxes on them in order to attract big fish like Google, Dell and Microsoft made sense.  Going 100s of billions of dollars in the hole in hopes a mythical nonexistent company will relocate their headquarters to the US makes no sense.

Ireland is a country of 4.5 million taxing gigantic companies that are selling into a market of 800+ million.  We are a country of 330 million.  We can only domestically tax companies selling into a market less than half the size of the market Ireland is selling into.  The fact that we would have to cough up 100 billions of dollars in tax revenue to even implement this loonie plan means we would have a enormous net drop in tax revenue with no mythical white knight foreign corporation to come to our rescue.

Look Link, corporate earnings that officially headquarter in the United States are much, much higher than $600-650 billion. If that doesn't tell you that most American companies report their actual profits in other countries I don't know what will.

Furthermore, and this is a total guess here, but just K-1 alone in the US is probably at least $1.5 trillion. So I don't know how you can possibly be making this argument.

[Link]

Look Link, corporate earnings that officially headquarter in the United States are much, much higher than $600-650 billion.

I'm not sure what that sentence means.  I assume you are saying that there are companies incorporated in the US that have overseas earnings.  That in fact is true.

Well based on the your logic all those profits are being taxed in Ireland at 12.5% instead of the 35% in the US.  Fine.  Subtract out the 100s of billions we would lose if we implemented your domestic corporate tax cut and add in ALL the corporate tax revenue Ireland collects (EUR 3.9 billion/yr) that would instantaneously flow over here.  Guess what?  We are still net negative hundreds of billions of dollars over 5 years.

Ireland is only collecting 3.9 billion Euro a year while we are collecting $191 billion/yr.  So you want to slash our domestic corporate tax revenue in hopes of getting a fraction of Ireland's 3.9 billion Euro?  That makes no sense.

[Wonkish1]

Look Link, corporate earnings that officially headquarter in the United States are much, much higher than $600-650 billion.

I'm not sure what that sentence means.  I assume you are saying that there are companies incorporated in the US that have overseas earnings.  That in fact is true.

Well based on the your logic all those profits are being taxed in Ireland at 12.5% instead of the 35% in the US.  Fine.  Subtract out the 100s of billions we would lose if we implemented your domestic corporate tax cut and add in ALL the corporate tax revenue Ireland collects (EUR 3.9 billion/yr) that would instantaneously flow over here.  Guess what?  We are still net negative hundreds of billions of dollars over 5 years.

Ireland is only collecting 3.9 billion Euro a year while we are collecting $191 billion/yr.  So you want to slash our domestic corporate tax revenue in hopes of getting a fraction of Ireland's 3.9 billion Euro?  That makes no sense.

No its not all in Ireland not even close. There are dozens of corporate tax havens in the world. I can guarantee you ton more companies report in the UAE at 0% many of which would rather just not go through the hassle and instead report in the US if rates were lower.

Also, Ireland receives about $20 billion a year last I checked not $4 billion.

You have also not mentioned the thousands of small businesses in the US that report little or no corporate earnings to tax because of how high they are.

[Link]

Also, Ireland receives about $20 billion a year last I checked not $4 billion.

No one said Ireland collected $4 billion DOLLARS in corporate tax revenue.  I believe the figure I quoted was 3.9 Billion EURO.  Furthermore...



You don't even know the numbers for Ireland and yet you want to take your wrong numbers and use them as a model for the US.  I think based on what you posted in this thread we can all safely assume you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Wonkish1]

Also, Ireland receives about $20 billion a year last I checked not $4 billion.

No one said Ireland collected $4 billion DOLLARS in corporate tax revenue.  I believe the figure I quoted was 3.9 Billion EURO.  Furthermore...



You don't even know the numbers for Ireland and yet you want to take your wrong numbers and use them as a model for the US.  I think based on what you posted in this thread we can all safely assume you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sorry, your right its $4. The last time I looked it up a while back it was total revenue that was around $20 billion territory. I confused one for the other. Operating off of memory and mistaking corporate tax revenue for corporate revenue is understandable. How much do you post on here off of memory?

I know a he!! of a lot more of what I'm talking about than you do. You actually seem to think that US companies only earn $600-650 billion a year. $180 billion a year in corporate tax income is tiny given how much corporate earnings there are.

[Link]

Also, Ireland receives about $20 billion a year last I checked not $4 billion.

No one said Ireland collected $4 billion DOLLARS in corporate tax revenue.  I believe the figure I quoted was 3.9 Billion EURO.  Furthermore...



You don't even know the numbers for Ireland and yet you want to take your wrong numbers and use them as a model for the US.  I think based on what you posted in this thread we can all safely assume you have no idea what you are talking about.

I know a he!! of a lot more of what I'm talking about than you do. You actually seem to think that US companies only earn $600-650 billion a year.

Wow.

When you've been exposed for using totally bogus numbers that you can't possibley defend I guess the only thing that is left is the strawman.  Please do as I have done and post the quote where I said US companies earn $600-650 billion a year.  Is this really what political debates have become?

[Wonkish1]

Also, Ireland receives about $20 billion a year last I checked not $4 billion.

No one said Ireland collected $4 billion DOLLARS in corporate tax revenue.  I believe the figure I quoted was 3.9 Billion EURO.  Furthermore...



You don't even know the numbers for Ireland and yet you want to take your wrong numbers and use them as a model for the US.  I think based on what you posted in this thread we can all safely assume you have no idea what you are talking about.

I know a he!! of a lot more of what I'm talking about than you do. You actually seem to think that US companies only earn $600-650 billion a year.

Wow.

When you've been exposed for using totally bogus numbers that you can't possibley defend I guess the only thing that is left is the strawman.  Please do as I have done and post the quote where I said US companies earn $600-650 billion a year.  Is this really what political debates have become?

Actually you pretty much have.

"Corporate tax revenues for one year alone are $191 billion in a weak economy."

"We would need to attract corporations 20, 30, 40 times the size of Microsoft, Google, and Apple just to make up for the 100s of billions of dollars we lost from that zany tax plan and show a net gain.  Those companies do not exist."

See I can actually do math you can't. You claim that the US wouldn't net more taxable earnings to make up for the lowered rates. Well $191 billion assuming average tax rates in the high 20s is approximately $600-650 billion in earnings. Since you don't think lower rates will attract any increase in reported taxable earnings then you must think that US corporations only made $600-650 billion in earnings. Just because your a mathematical retard doesn't mean you have to take it out on me.

Clearly this low number in reported taxable earnings demonstrates that the vast majority of reported GAAP earnings in the US are actually reported to countries other than our own. If you disagree with that then you are saying that corporate earnings are only about $600-650 billion.


And don't be a little b*tch. I make 1 correction based on numbers I read months ago. I doubt you remember dog$hit after a couple months. And by the way at least I admit when I make a mistake. You don't admit d*ck. You either gloss over it or run off the thread.

[Link]

And don't be a little b*tch. I make 1 correction based on numbers I read months ago. I doubt you remember dog$hit after a couple months. And by the way at least I admit when I make a mistake. You don't admit d*ck. You either gloss over it or run off the thread.

Uhhh, wow.  Okay.

First of all I have other things going on in my life.  I've devoted a considerable amount of time to hijacking this thread.  If I think it's time to move on for awhile and give other posters a chance to converse I don't think I should be criticized.

Furthermore...





As I was saying...

WONKISH1!  Ireland is a country of 4.5 million with no domestic companies that are comparable to Microsoft, Google, Apple, or Daimler.

Pretty common sense.  I'm going to take a little break from Atlas now... if that is okay with you.

[Wonkish1]

Well since you haven't really addressed any of my points provided in this discussion, you've pretty much not participated anyway.

Never addressed small businesses choosing not to report corporate earnings. You never addressed the fact that $191 billion in revenue is low relative to actual earnings made in the US, and you never addressed the fact that $191 billion represents about $600-650 billion in earnings which is low relative actual earnings in the US.

But fair enough because I don't really want to argue with someone who just ignores the points I make in my posts. And continues with the same crap they've been saying since their first comment.

[rwoy]

Gotta love how these conversations morph ... what started as a discussion about raising taxes on the poor has become petty name calling over the amt corporations declare annually in profits.

[WillK]

If you're (proper usage) expecting that "corporate taxes get distributed to buyers" you are mistaken.
If you're expecting that "if you cut the corporate tax rate the cost of goods fall" you are mistaken.

Look you don't know what your talking about.

Actually I do. 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Good to see you are agreeing with me. 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So we at least know you have half a brain.


 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The incentive might grow, but the opportunity for competitive attack may or may not be there. What are the barriers to entry? 

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So many givens and conditions and 'enough time'  = basically an admission that a connection between a change in the corporate tax rate and a future change in the price of goods is tenuous.

[Wonkish1]

So many givens and conditions and 'enough time'  = basically an admission that a connection between a change in the corporate tax rate and a future change in the price of goods is tenuous.

No its not. Its an inevitability. The only companies that produce way oversized profit margins in the markets are companies that either have first mover advantage or are protected from competition by the government(patents for example. Apple has extremely high profit margins, Pfizer has high profit margins(but also high cost of doing business-development of drugs), etc.

Car companies have high barriers to entry, but also don't produce that high of margins(given their volume they sell). Look at what happened to the big 3.

Oil companies do well, but the US government has basically made sure that new refineries wont be built in this country. So its not like any new competitors can really enter the market. But even then Oil and gas profits are primarily based on volume not margins. And natural gas has tons of competition and its a similar market with as much government interference.


For the vast majority of companies, almost immediately after oversized profits are earned they come under competitive attack. Its only in a certain few industries that time is an issue of eventually coming under attack(patent, first mover, government preventing competition, etc.). So yeah your wrong.

Also everything in the economy is either already a commodity or in the process of being commoditized.