Egypt opens its border with Palestine, breaking the siege of Gaza

[Liberté]

so, the conflict doesnt represent the true feelings of the citizens on either side?!

The political process is not a mirror reflection of the public will even in the most liberal of Western democracies, let alone illiberal and undemocratic states like the PLO and Israel.

In the United States, for example, the two main parties get a sense of the direction the public winds are blowing, figure out how to best satisfy the desires of their corporate and ideological sponsors, and call the result of the two 'ideology'. In the Palestinian-Israel conflict, the leaders (acting semi-independently, mind; I'm not suggesting a conspiracy) treat minor victories or defeats as major advances or setbacks in order to rile up the populace, only then to break the bad news that that isn't the end of the conflict and that both sides have to entrench even more deeply. That's the way politics works in all societies today, both 'modern' and 'semi-modern'. Public sentiment is only a base upon which an entire superstructure of political interests are built, wrapped up in political ritual.

[dead0man]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

Yes, clearly it's the Gazans who need to "grow up."

Yep....a lot fewer of them would die if the violent minority stopped committing terrorist acts.

[Liberté]

Yep....a lot fewer of them would die if the violent minority stopped committing terrorist acts.

The problem is that they have no reason to believe they would be anything but second-class citizens if they didn't commit terrorist attacks. Recall that they themselves were the victims of such assaults before 1948, and were treated as second-class citizens in the peace that followed. They're in the 'moral' wrong for engaging in such behavior, but you can't say they don't have damned good reason to do it.

[dead0man]

Yeah, they suffer today because their parents and grand parents were giant racist dicks and then lost the genocidal war they started.  If they'd take a more Gandhi or MLK Jr approach they'd be MUCH further along today.  They can make the change whenever they want to.  In the meantime, we can all agree on one thing.  The status quo works better for your average Israeli than it does for your average Pali.  We can come up with reasons for the fact and they'd likely differ.  Mine would mostly blame the Palestinians and their "allies" while occasionally acknowledging that Israel has made mistakes as well, you and your side will do the exact opposite.  But when it's all said and done, nothing will change as long as asshats keeping committing terrorist acts.  It doesn't matter what you, I or they think is giving them the excuse to commit these acts of terror.  It only matters that they are continuing and the fact that continuing them will keep us in the status quo.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

as everyone can see from this argument, the only thing that is going to result is war, war, and more war.  and the more we attempt to push these opposing sides together, the faster the next war is going to manifest itself.

sometimes it's simply better to allow sleeping dogs to simply sleep (and wounded dogs to die)...yeah, they're going to wake up eventually and bite your ass, but why hasten that moment.  enjoy peace while you have it, because there is always going to come a time for war

[ag]

do you think the majority of Palestinians believe Israel has a right to exist?!  heck, even a majority of Arab-Israelis dont believe that:

Why wouldn't you try making this symmetric. Many, if not most Israelis don't even believe Palestinians exist: they think it's an anti-semitic plot. And the don't make any exception for Christian Palestinians - I am surprised you care so little for your own brethren in Jesus )))

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

do you think the majority of Palestinians believe Israel has a right to exist?!  heck, even a majority of Arab-Israelis dont believe that:

Why wouldn't you try making this symmetric. Many, if not most Israelis don't even believe Palestinians exist: they think it's an anti-semitic plot. And the don't make any exception for Christian Palestinians - I am surprised you care so little for your own brethren in Jesus )))

I think I covered this topic already in the last day or two:

Yeah, actually jmfcst, why do you hate your Christian brethren in Palestina?

it's not that I hate them, rather it is that they are misguided and are taking a stand against God's promises to the Jewish nation, which are IRREVOCABLE (Rom 11:29).  And I am not willing to disobey God and bring judgment on myself simply to help these ME Christians destroy themselves.

Gen 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

I view them no differently that any other misguided Christian.

---

on a side note:  have I offended you in some way, you seem kinda tense?

[Liberté]

I think I covered this topic already in the last day or two:

Do you at least understand that those of us who do not believe that Yahweh ever made that promise - those of us who do not believe that Yahweh ever existed - are not inclined to accept that perspective when approaching a foreign policy question rising before us twenty centuries and three millenia after those passages were respectively written?

Also, to play on your terms, I'll note that Yahweh punished Israel constantly in the New Testament. Why should we assume they haven't merited His wrath, should He exist?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I think I covered this topic already in the last day or two:

Do you at least understand that those of us who do not believe that Yahweh ever made that promise - those of us who do not believe that Yahweh ever existed - are not inclined to accept that perspective when approaching a foreign policy question rising before us twenty centuries and three millenia after those passages were respectively written?

Also, to play on your terms, I'll note that Yahweh punished Israel constantly in the New Testament. Why should we assume they haven't merited His wrath, should He exist?

the question was regarding why I dont favor Palestinian Christians over Israel in the land dispute....so I explained that I believe those Christians are on the wrong side of scripture in this dispute...but, with you, I've been making a secular argument for the support of Israel...so let's not you and I mingle the two arguments

(though I do find it odd that you were attempting to categorize my Godhead beliefs when it sounds like you're basically saying you're a nonbeliever...that would be like me attempting to classify a cricket player when I'm not even a fan of the game.)

[Liberté]

the question was regarding why I dont favor Palestinian Christians over Israel in the land dispute....so I explained that I believe those Christians are on the wrong side of scripture in this dispute...but, with you, I've been making a secular argument for the support of Israel...so let's not you and I mingle the two arguments

I know that's what you were responding you. I posted my response to it because it seems to be part and parcel of your Zionism: that Israel is a Jewish homeland, ordained by God, from the day of His Covenant with Abraham until now. That seems, to me, to underlie your entire position on the issue; it likewise seems - and I fully admit the possibility I'm wrong - that geostrategic concerns are wholly secondary, and that you'd support Israel regardless of where it was located. If that's so, I was simply asking if you see why those of us who don't believe in the Biblical narrative have such widely differing views on the matter.

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When I was a boy, about six or seven, I attended a Southern Baptist Church with my grandparents every Sunday. I was enrolled in their Sunday School and attended every day it was held. I read the Bible constantly and consistently, and was in their junior program for early training to become a preacher until the age of twelve.

That's largely why I no longer believe, though I've certainly self-educated myself on the subject more since then.

[danny]

I'm not sure if you knew this, but Gaddafi was "Israel's enemy", not the rebels now fighting against him (presumably that's what you're referring to; it's very difficult for me to follow whatever line of 'reason' you're using). Frankly, I think we could get a better deal selling a few tanks to the Palestinians to even up the score. I'm not saying we should, but it beats sticking our necks out for a country that only exists because of the United Nations.

I know I'm bumping something from a couple of pages ago but I was reading through this thread and I laughed when I got to this point because it's just so far from the truth. Israel exists because it won a war for its independence, not because of any UN resolution that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

[Liberté]

I'm not sure if you knew this, but Gaddafi was "Israel's enemy", not the rebels now fighting against him (presumably that's what you're referring to; it's very difficult for me to follow whatever line of 'reason' you're using). Frankly, I think we could get a better deal selling a few tanks to the Palestinians to even up the score. I'm not saying we should, but it beats sticking our necks out for a country that only exists because of the United Nations.

I know I'm bumping something from a couple of pages ago but I was reading through this thread and I laughed when I got to this point because it's just so far from the truth. Israel exists because it won a war for its independence, not because of any UN resolution that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Without the Mandate, Britain would have stomped you flat, and there were elements in the British political establishment that were already inclined to do that even with it.

[ag]

(though I do find it odd that you were attempting to categorize my Godhead beliefs when it sounds like you're basically saying you're a nonbeliever...that would be like me attempting to classify a cricket player when I'm not even a fan of the game.)

Do you realize, that by failing to delete the name in quoting Liberte, you've committed, from an orthodox Jewish standpoint, a crime, for which there can be only one punishment: death by stoning? The learned rabbis would grant it, that under current circumstances it might be impractical to execute you, but they are in agreement that you should be?

Though, of course, the very fact that you celebrate Sabbath, while being Christian, is grounds for the same punishment.

[ag]

Poor jmfsct. From the standpoint of most Christians, he is a sworn enemy of Christianity. From the standpoint of pretty much all Jews, he is a sworn enemy of the Jews. And he is trying so hard to be nice to both ))

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

(though I do find it odd that you were attempting to categorize my Godhead beliefs when it sounds like you're basically saying you're a nonbeliever...that would be like me attempting to classify a cricket player when I'm not even a fan of the game.)

Do you realize, that by failing to delete the name in quoting Liberte, you've committed, from an orthodox Jewish standpoint, a crime, for which there can be only one punishment: death by stoning? The learned rabbis would grant it, that under current circumstances it might be impractical to execute you, but they are in agreement that you should be?

why would I care?

---

Though, of course, the very fact that you celebrate Sabbath, while being Christian, is grounds for the same punishment.

i dont observe the 7th day sabbath, unless i am witnessing to someone who does, as I did with my wife over the 18 month period I was dating her

[Liberté]

Again, I ask:

Also, to play on your terms, I'll note that Yahweh punished Israel constantly in the Old Testament. Why should we assume they haven't merited His wrath, should He exist?

[ag]

i dont observe the 7th day sabbath, unless i am witnessing to someone who does, as I did with my wife over the 18 month period I was dating her

Ah, ok. As long as you work on Sundays you are fine ) But then, those 18 months.... tough. Still, it pales in comparison with the obvious fact that you didn't delete the name ))))

[ag]

Again, I ask:

Also, to play on your terms, I'll note that Yahweh punished Israel constantly in the Old Testament. Why should we assume they haven't merited His wrath, should He exist?

He thinks the rapture's nigh )))

[danny]

I'm not sure if you knew this, but Gaddafi was "Israel's enemy", not the rebels now fighting against him (presumably that's what you're referring to; it's very difficult for me to follow whatever line of 'reason' you're using). Frankly, I think we could get a better deal selling a few tanks to the Palestinians to even up the score. I'm not saying we should, but it beats sticking our necks out for a country that only exists because of the United Nations.

I know I'm bumping something from a couple of pages ago but I was reading through this thread and I laughed when I got to this point because it's just so far from the truth. Israel exists because it won a war for its independence, not because of any UN resolution that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Without the Mandate, Britain would have stomped you flat, and there were elements in the British political establishment that were already inclined to do that even with it.

1)It was official British policy dating back to the Balfour declaration that Jews should get a country
2)The British were trying to stop the Jewish underground for years and didn't have much success in stomping anyone.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Poor jmfsct. From the standpoint of most Christians, he is a sworn enemy of Christianity. From the standpoint of pretty much all Jews, he is a sworn enemy of the Jews. And he is trying so hard to be nice to both ))

well, that's no surprise since for about 1500 years beginning from around 325 AD, I would have been executed as a heretic by both Catholics and Protestants (at least by John Calvin) alike.  But who is the bigger heretic, someone who disagrees with a single word of a man made creed, or someone who believes Christ gave them the authority to kill those who didnt agree with every single word of a man made creed?

and you might was well stop trying to shake me up, I'm shake proof.  and I have been dragged before panel of religious people who thought I was undermining their unique authority to interpret scripture....so, there isnt an argument that is going to catch me off guard or toss me to and fro.  but, I am always willing to listen.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Again, I ask:

Also, to play on your terms, I'll note that Yahweh punished Israel constantly in the Old Testament. Why should we assume they haven't merited His wrath, should He exist?

dude, if you've ever read scripture, you would know that every nation God has sent against Israel to punish her, God has later destroyed that same nation....so, from a religious standpoint, why would I want to raise a hand against God's anointed, even if they are being disobedient?

[Liberté]

1)It was official British policy dating back to the Balfour declaration that Jews should get a country

It's also officially stated American policy to attempt to level out the social disparity between Shi'a and Sunni in Afghanistan. What we have actually been doing is giving the Sunni a happy taste of revenge for the decades of repression they suffered under Saddam.

The Balfour Declaration was enormously controversial in England, and was fought tooth-and-nail by such British luminaries as Edwin Montagu, the (half-Jewish) Liberal Secretary of State for India. Balfour's opponents wanted to crush you, and had they been free to do so, they would have.

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They never put the full weight of their force against you.

[Liberté]

Again, I ask:

Also, to play on your terms, I'll note that Yahweh punished Israel constantly in the Old Testament. Why should we assume they haven't merited His wrath, should He exist?

dude, if you've ever read scripture, you would know that every nation God has sent against Israel to punish her, God has later destroyed that same nation....so, from a religious standpoint, why would I want to raise a hand against God's anointed, even if they are being disobedient?

Who are you to raise a hand against those Yahweh has anointed to punish Israel, if the possibility exists that's what their actions ultimately are from a theological perspective? Shouldn't that be left to God?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

i dont observe the 7th day sabbath, unless i am witnessing to someone who does, as I did with my wife over the 18 month period I was dating her

Ah, ok. As long as you work on Sundays you are fine ) But then, those 18 months....

Sunday?  first, my girlfriend was observing the Jewish Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday....and I've never considered Sunday a Sabbath..

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 tough. Still, it pales in comparison with the obvious fact that you didn't delete the name ))))

  why would I care, what's your point?

[ag]

and you might was well stop trying to shake me up, I'm shake proof.  

My dear jmfsct ) I am not trying to shake you up - I am just mightily amused ))

Though, of course, it is a useful point to make that from the Israeli standpoint you are a tribal enemy, but a useful fool at the same time. Just so that you understand Israelis better, when you encounter them.

I know, you don't care - you do this because of your Faith. Since I am a non-believer, I am quite ok w/ that, as you can imagine )))))) In fact, if anything, I prefer your godly selflessness to Israeli tribalism. But the way you go about this is still mightily amusing ))))