Obama asks for 1967 border as 'basis' for peace between Israel and Palestine

[danny]

Topic title changed; excessive hyperbole.

title-nazi, as you can see from the responses of Israel and the PA, Obama has simply inflamed the situation, hence my title of "Obama clears path for next ME war"...see you this summer when you and I both will be watching you eat your self-imposed title, at which point I will lead a mutiny, buzz your tower, and raise the flag of my original title once again.  until then - no soup for you!

While Obama's speech didn't actually help the siuation in any way, no one is going to go to war over this (there might indeed be a war but it will have nothing to do with Obama's speech.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Sometimes you need to throw the cat among the pigeons.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

While Obama's speech didn't actually help the siuation in any way, no one is going to go to war over this (there might indeed be a war but it will have nothing to do with Obama's speech.

oh, if Obama pushes this it will certainly end in war.  Arafat didnt accept this in 2000 because he would have been killed by the Muslims, so he went home empty handed and all hell broke loose...the terms simply arent acceptable to either side.  

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

doesnt Bibi address the US Congress today?  look for him to get a longer standing ovation than any Obama will get during his presidency!!!

[Sbane]

doesnt Bibi address the US Congress today?  look for him to get a longer standing ovation than any Obama will get during his presidency!!!

That's not something to be proud of.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

doesnt Bibi address the US Congress today?  look for him to get a longer standing ovation than any Obama will get during his presidency!!!

That's not something to be proud of.

that's debatable.  but, since it was known weeks ago that Bibi was going to address congress, it wasnt politically smart for Obama to create the largest rift with Israel since the Bush41/JamesBakerIII era.

It will be interesting to see if the Dems sit on their hands during the Bibi speech.  If Bibi is smart, he will rip Obama's plan a new one (without mentioning Obama's name) in front of the US Congress.  His standing ovation will send a signal to the world that the US Congress stands with Israel, even if Obama doesnt.

[Sbane]

Yeah, the last thing the US needs to do is advertise the fact that we are Israels little bitch, but it's not as if you would understand that or care. You have more important things to worry about, like the rapture after the Israelis and the Palestinians finish each other off.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yeah, the last thing the US needs to do is advertise the fact that we are Israels little bitch, but it's not as if you would understand that or care.

unless we are willing to surrender, convert to Islam, and invoke Sharia Law, we might as well stand up for what we believe in.

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You have more important things to worry about, like the rapture after the Israelis and the Palestinians finish each other off.

you're a little rusty on your jmfcst-view-of-the-endtimes: the 2nd Coming happens when the Antichrist is ruling from a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem, which will take place AFTER the AntiChrist has taken peace from the earth and has set up the mark of the beast, killing anyone who doesnt accept it.

[Sbane]

Yeah, the last thing the US needs to do is advertise the fact that we are Israels little bitch, but it's not as if you would understand that or care.

unless we are willing to surrender, convert to Islam, and invoke Sharia Law, we might as well stand up for what we believe in.

If US foreign policy actually stood up for what we believed in, we wouldn't be supplying Israel with weapons of their choice while doing nothing for the Palestinians whatsoever (except for a nice word here or there).

The foundation of Israel was immoral to begin with, since they took land that wasn't theirs. It didn't have much to do with Islam to begin with (let's not forget what the Israelis did to Palestinian Christians). Hell, Israel is one of the main reasons why Islamic fundamentalism/terrorism has become such a problem today. Saudi Arabia being the other big reason, another theater where US foreign policy epic fails.

[Insula Dei]

Yeah, actually jmfcst, why do you hate your Christian brethren in Palestina?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If US foreign policy actually stood up for what we believed in, we wouldn't be supplying Israel with weapons of their choice while doing nothing for the Palestinians whatsoever (except for a nice word here or there).

The foundation of Israel was immoral to begin with, since they took land that wasn't theirs. It didn't have much to do with Islam to begin with (let's not forget what the Israelis did to Palestinian Christians). Hell, Israel is one of the main reasons why Islamic fundamentalism/terrorism has become such a problem today. Saudi Arabia being the other big reason, another theater where US foreign policy epic fails.

How, exactly, does any land belong to one nation or another, except through strength or mutual acceptance?  

From a secular perspective, we are an accessory to the reshowing of this movie by continuously rewinding it instead of standing back and allowing it to run its course.

from their religious perspective, both sides claim religious God-given rights to the land, and you’re NOT going to change that for those religious promises are embedded in the racial-blood identities of the warring parties.  It would be tantamount to requiring me to renounce Christ as a prerequisite to peace.  It’s a total non-starter.  It aint happening.  That’s what our secular leaders don’t understand – there are true believers on each side of this conflict, they’re not going to climb down from their trees, and both have their sights set on Jerusalem as the prize.

From my religious perspective, Israel is simply God’s timepiece on earth (and has been since the time of Abraham in Genesis), the prophesied events concerning Israel are signs to allow the believer to understand the historical period in which they are living.  The OT and NT are in complete agreement on this, and it doesn’t require any intervention on my part.  There is no solution to this problem, and any interference by outsiders only makes matters worse.  The only risk to my salvation would be if I were to attempt to take any part of the promised land away from Israel and give it to someone else.  So, I stay out it.

Zech 12:3 “I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.”

To add a quote from the movie War Games:  “A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?”

This is simply not our fight.  But, hey, America has learned nothing – we will continue to stick our nose in the middle of this conflict, trying to solve the puzzle, and so we also will continue to be injured.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yeah, actually jmfcst, why do you hate your Christian brethren in Palestina?

it's not that I hate them, rather it is that they are misguided and are taking a stand against God's promises to the Jewish nation, which are IRREVOCABLE (Rom 11:29).  And I am not willing to disobey God and bring judgment on myself simply to help these ME Christians destroy themselves.

Gen 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

I view them no differently that any other misguided Christian.

[Insula Dei]

Why is God especially attached to a certain people and a certain place? Aren't you denying the univeralist pretences of Christianity?

[Sbane]

This is simply not our fight. 

This I certainly agree with. Too bad we are already way too involved and there is no way out. A pretty bad situation.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Why is God especially attached to a certain people and a certain place?

to bring salvation to the whole earth, and to act as a timekeeper of God's plan for humanity

Gen 12:3 "all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

mat 24:32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree [Israel]: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, right at the door. "

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Aren't you denying the univeralist pretences of Christianity?

the what? not sure what that means, but I do NOT believe the church (the spiritual Israel) has replaced Israel (the physical Israel), nor did the writers of the NT:

Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited:  Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   “The deliverer will come from Zion;
   he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
   when I take away their sins.”

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But, even from a secular standpoint, why is it so hard to understand that there are certain things certain people are unwilling to compromise on?  You can even find secular cases of this, so why not religious?  At the rate both sides are acquiring weapons, there isn’t time to water down their religious beliefs.  We are simply helping both sides to become more entrenched and more armed.  The 1967 borders weren’t agreeable back in 67 or at any time in the past, or the 1948 lines for that matter.  Why do we think any lines, regardless of how they are drawn, are going to be agreeable now? Bringing the two sides together only so that they can disagree again, is only going to raise tensions and cause another war

[Insula Dei]

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1 Cor 12:13 "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink"

Acts 2:5-12 "5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

I'm sure there are even better illustrations of the general principle. A nice book to read on the topic is Alain Badiou's St. Paul book. The Universalist pretence of christinaity is quite a big deal with the 'theological turn' (please allow me this joke) in contemporary culture criticism.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

1 Cor 12:13 "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink"

Acts 2:5-12 "5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

That is simply saying that within the church (those filled with the Holy Spirit), nationalism doesn’t matter, the spirit is available to both Jews and Gentiles who believe.

But that has nothing to do with those outside of the church – the nation of Israel (the Jewish non-believers) is still the time keeper of the earth.  The individual non-believing Jews are not saved, but right before Christ returns, when Israel is on the brink of extinction,  many (if it all) non-believing Jews who are still alive will have their spiritual eyes opened and will turn to Jesus and Christ will save them through belief in him, just as he saved the church through faith.  And after the wrath of God is poured out on the world, Christ will establish these newly minted Christian Jews within the promised land and all the nonbelieving nations will then know that God loves his chosen Israel and God will fulfill all the promises to Israel in the sight of all of her enemies.  And Jesus will reign as King of Israel and sit on the throne of David.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

the PA is calling Bibi's speech before Congress a "declaration of war".  Which is exactly my point - forcing these two sides to the table and forcing them to show their hands is a recipe for open hostility.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110524/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_netanyahu_4

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Also, in the south, if Egypt starts moving a lot of tanks into the Sinai, expect Israel to strike first

Right, that is totally going to happen...

Btw, congratulations, jmf. You learned how to use capital letters!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Also, in the south, if Egypt starts moving a lot of tanks into the Sinai, expect Israel to strike first

Right, that is totally going to happen...

well, it certainly is a far greater possibility in the future due to the Arab Spring

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The thing is, while it won't be happening anytime soon, Israel is not going to forever remain the dominant military power in the region.  Yet Israel's current policy is based on that assumption.  Right now, the two sides are not close enough for peace to be possible.

[tpfkaw]

The foundation of Israel was immoral to begin with, since they took land that wasn't theirs.

No it wasn't, that was a long time ago!!!

[2952-0-0]

Why don't you flat out say "I can't wait for October 21" and remove any doubt?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Why don't you flat out say "I can't wait for October 21" and remove any doubt?

It’s a free country, even for you.  Therefore, you really should go out and get an argument, and then you wouldn’t have to resort to misrepresenting the viewpoints of others.

[courts]

The foundation of Israel was immoral to begin with, since they took land that wasn't theirs.

No it wasn't, that was a long time ago!!!

I support Israel's right to exist.