Mandatory Arabic Classes Coming To Mansfield

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I'm not sure why you're personally attacking me.  I have zero problem with Arabic - or any other language - being taught in public schools.  I do have a problem with it being mandatory without any parental input or opt out.

Do you have a problem w/ any subject being mandatory? If no, why such an exception for Arabic (or a foreign language, as the case might be)?

This isn't math or English.  Assuming staffing is available, students and/or parents should be able to choose what (if any) second language to learn without some districtwide mandate from some bureaucrat on high.  For some students, learning proper Spanish might make more sense to learn, especially in a state like Texas - or French, or Chinese or Arabic or Latin or two of those or more or even none at all.

I'm not trying to personally attack you, I think you're a good guy, but dude, c'mon....you said earlier boards should decide what's mandatory.....but you didn't answer my question, which was - If the School Board said Arabic will be mandatory, is that ok?   I'm attacking your position, which seems to be anti-arabic.

[ag]

I'm not sure why you're personally attacking me.  I have zero problem with Arabic - or any other language - being taught in public schools.  I do have a problem with it being mandatory without any parental input or opt out.

Do you have a problem w/ any subject being mandatory? If no, why such an exception for Arabic (or a foreign language, as the case might be)?

This isn't math or English.  Assuming staffing is available, students and/or parents should be able to choose what (if any) second language to learn without some districtwide mandate from some bureaucrat on high.  For some students, learning proper Spanish might make more sense to learn, especially in a state like Texas - or French, or Chinese or Arabic or Latin or two of those or more or even none at all.

So, do I get it right: foreign languages should be optional. Ok. I also believe in choice. But I would, if I were on a university admissions committee also make a choice. Children of parents who think this way need only one university-level course: Advanced Burger Flipping.

[cinyc]

So, do I get it right: foreign languages should be optional. Ok. I also believe in choice. But I would, if I were on a university admissions committee also make a choice. Children of parents who think this way need only one university-level course: Advanced Burger Flipping.

Not everyone is fit for or goes to college.  For them, it might make more sense to take some occupational-related elective instead of a foreign language.  And those who already speak another language but don't speak or write proper English might be better off taking more intensive English courses instead.  Time is sometimes better spent learning something other than a second language - one size doesn't fit all.

I'm not trying to personally attack you, I think you're a good guy, but dude, c'mon....you said earlier boards should decide what's mandatory.....but you didn't answer my question, which was - If the School Board said Arabic will be mandatory, is that ok?   I'm attacking your position, which seems to be anti-arabic.

I don't have the time to respond to every question.  I think I made it clear in my last response - I'd respect their decision, but wouldn't be happy that they made a particular language mandatory.  I have two problems with this - how it seems to have been sneakily and quietly been put in place by bureaucrats without consent and that it makes a particular language mandatory for all students.

[The Mikado]

Children of parents who think this way need only one university-level course: Advanced Burger Flipping.

Don't you need a background in Spanish to pass that course, anyway?  (Seriously, though, even for service sector jobs, you need to be able to communicate with your colleagues)

[Platypus]

In Victoria, it's mandatory to take a language until year 10 (sophomore year), but you can chop and change. Most primary schools only offer one language (my school did Italian) and secondary schools offer 2-6, most commonly from French, German, Indonesian, Japanese, Italian, Greek, Spanish, and Mandarin Chinese. Arabic, Hebrew, Hindi, Cantonese, Russian, Thai, Auslan Sign Language, Indigenous languages, Farsi and a few others are offered at some schools too.

The most commonly taught I think are French, Japanese, and Indonesian (in that order).

[ag]

[Not everyone is fit for or goes to college.  

Ah, I got it. You just believe it should be decided who goes to college before junior high. I hope, you are not planning to decide that before the kids are born,  based on, say, ancestry, are you?

[phk]

[Not everyone is fit for or goes to college.  

Ah, I got it. You just believe it should be decided who goes to college before junior high. I hope, you are not planning to decide that before the kids are born,  based on, say, ancestry, are you?

Well hopefully we can genetically screen for intellectual capability in the womb..

[cinyc]

[Not everyone is fit for or goes to college.  

Ah, I got it. You just believe it should be decided who goes to college before junior high. I hope, you are not planning to decide that before the kids are born,  based on, say, ancestry, are you?

What are you talking about?  I said nothing about junior high or anything else.

The belief that everyone is fit for or should go to college to the exclusion of occupational education is pure nonsense that seems to be more prevalent in this country than elsewhere.  A good carpenter or plumber is worth a heck of a lot more to society than yet another liberal arts college graduate - and often gets paid as such.  There is nothing wrong with that.

You are a moderator here.  You should not be accusing people of being a racist.  Quite frankly, I'm sick of these personal attacks levied against anyone who doesn't follow the politically correct Atlasian views on social issues.

[ag]

You are a moderator here.  You should not be accusing people of being a racist.  Quite frankly, I'm sick of these personal attacks levied against anyone who doesn't follow the politically correct Atlasian views on social issues.

I am a moderator on the Economics board. You can be sure I will never take into account what I think of you when moderating your posts there - ask Carl Hayden or opebo. I find it mildly offensive when my ability to moderate impartially is questioned, but I am not willing to suspend my own judgements when posting as an individual.

[ag]

What are you talking about?  I said nothing about junior high or anything else.

And on the substance. The program in question, as far as I can understand, was for a junior high, or am I wrong? So, weren't you suggesting that students should decide that they don't go to college THAT early?

You know, after WWII they tried to explain to a Russian cleric (Archbishop Luka, I believe) that not all Communists were equally bad and that some of them were moral, patriotic people. But the cleric's response was not very politically correct. He said, in fact, that he was not a connoisseur of sh**t.  Neither, frankly, am I: I don't care what sort of nativism you preach, it stinks the same to me. It has nothing to do w/ political correctness - if we all agree to call your set of views "grrrrump", I'd hate grrrrump.
 

[ag]

[Not everyone is fit for or goes to college.  

Ah, I got it. You just believe it should be decided who goes to college before junior high. I hope, you are not planning to decide that before the kids are born,  based on, say, ancestry, are you?

Well hopefully we can genetically screen for intellectual capability in the womb..

Mandatory screening, I presume?

[ag]

Yeah, and, of course, you are welcome to hate my views and despise myself - I welcome that )

[cinyc]

What are you talking about?  I said nothing about junior high or anything else.

And on the substance. The program in question, as far as I can understand, was for a junior high, or am I wrong? So, weren't you suggesting that students should decide that they don't go to college THAT early?

You know, after WWII they tried to explain to a Russian cleric (Archbishop Luka, I believe) that not all Communists were equally bad and that some of them were moral, patriotic people. But the cleric's response was not very politically correct. He said, in fact, that he was not a connoisseur of sh**t.  Neither, frankly, am I: I don't care what sort of nativism you preach, it stinks the same to me. It has nothing to do w/ political correctness - if we all agree to call your set of views "grrrrump", I'd hate grrrrump.
 

The program in question may have been for junior high or before, but I never said that ANYTHING about when students should decide that they shouldn't go to college.  You are taking my comments out of context in a vain attempt to paint me as some sort of racist, wink, wink.  I am sick of that crap.  All I said is that one size education doesn't fit all, and foreign language education should be elective since some people's time might be better spent taking a different, more relevant subject to their skill set.

You are also fundamentally misrepresenting my views on the initial issue to begin with.  To me, PARENTS are primarily responsible for raising their children, not the all-knowing, always correct nanny state, often personified in its worst form by the bureaucrats who run school districts.  If PARENTS object to a particular usually optional thing being forced upon their kids in public schools, their wishes should generally be respected.  I know this isn't the Atlasian PC line, but parental opt outs should be allowed for religious or any other rational reason.  Other than for lack of staff, there is absolutely no reason to force a particular foreign language on students, particularly one that isn't widely spoken in the place where it is being taught.

By the way, it didn't sound like the elected school board ever backed (or perhaps even knew of) Mansfield's half-baked plan, and even the educrats who proposed it have backed off.

[ag]

You are also fundamentally misrepresenting my views on the initial issue to begin with.  To me, PARENTS are primarily responsible for raising their children, not the all-knowing, always correct nanny state, often personified in its worst form by the bureaucrats who run school districts.  If PARENTS object...

So, if I, as a parent, would object to my children learning English or math, why shouldn't I be allowed to opt out? If I expect my child to go to a university in Guatemala to study art, why do they need either?

Once again: why such an exception for a foreign language. Why is it that one size fits all elsewhere?

[cinyc]

You are also fundamentally misrepresenting my views on the initial issue to begin with.  To me, PARENTS are primarily responsible for raising their children, not the all-knowing, always correct nanny state, often personified in its worst form by the bureaucrats who run school districts.  If PARENTS object...

So, if I, as a parent, would object to my children learning English or math, why shouldn't I be allowed to opt out? If I expect my child to go to a university in Guatemala to study art, why do they need either?

Once again: why such an exception for a foreign language. Why is it that one size fits all elsewhere?

Nice red herring.  Your rational basis for opting out of learning English or math is what, exactly?  I can't remember the last time I read a news article objecting to the teaching of English or math.  Of using certain books in an English curriculum, perhaps - of which I have sympathy for allowing an opt-out in some circumstances.  But of English and math altogether?  Both subjects contain basic skills necessary to live in the US.  Learning a foreign language does not.

In my ideal world, you'd use a voucher to send your kid to the local Guatemalan studies school  so they can learn whatever it is that art universities in Guatemala want prospective students to be taught.  Of course, your hypothetical is so absurd that I doubt one would exist - even a Guatemalan art school probably wants their prospective students to have studied some math.

[phk]

In the US educational system. Foreign language is an optional elective, often with a choice of 3-4.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

You are a moderator here.  You should not be accusing people of being a racist.  Quite frankly, I'm sick of these personal attacks levied against anyone who doesn't follow the politically correct Atlasian views on social issues.

I'll assume I'm one of the attackers although that wasn't the plan.  My response was because I thought you were being coy and not simply saying you oppose Arabic teaching (which if you did believe it and would have said that we could have disagreed and moved on).  That was the impression I got, so I was trying to get either confirmation or a denial.  I don't think I got either. 

[CARLHAYDEN]

Yes, I can see that the original story has been updated.  But, why would it have been necessary to update the original story, removing all references to "mandatory" classes, if the classes were in fact mandatory?  Was the original report that made Drudge in error about this?

NO!

When the public learned of the mandatory requirement, there was such an outcry that the school administrators began backing down by degrees.

Unfortunately, I have noticed a number of site that have 'scrubbed' their posts to be politically correct.

There are a number of other sites that have confirmed the original story.

Scrubbed for "political correctness?"  Um, no; they were changed to correct a misrepresentation in the original story.  The Arabic classes would, in the particular high schools where the program would be implemented, be electives offered from within the framework of the state's writing requirements.  Students don't have to take Arabic or classes in the "Arabic studies" program, and can fulfill their writing requirements through other coursework.  But, if they were to take some Arabic classes (not just on language), those classes would qualify in partly fulfilling state education board high school writing requirements.  The original story confused the issue.  The classes are not mandatory, they are electives.

The original story was correct!!!

When the school district ran into a wall of opposition, they modified their program.

[ag]

 Your rational basis for opting out of learning English or math is what, exactly?  

It is exactly the same as your "rational basis" for opting out of any other language: I don't see any (except, possibly, xenophobia, in your case).

[ag]

In the US educational system. Foreign language is an optional elective, often with a choice of 3-4.

To the best of my knowledge, US does not have a single educational system, it's regulated, mostly, at a district and/or state level.;

[cinyc]

Your rational basis for opting out of learning English or math is what, exactly?  

It is exactly the same as your "rational basis" for opting out of any other language: I don't see any (except, possibly, xenophobia, in your case).

I guess that Spanish is arguably a more relevant language to learn than Arabic, since it's more widely spoken in the US doesn't count.  Or that I don't expect to go to a liberal arts college, so I'd be better off taking an occupational education class instead of any language doesn't count.

My supposed xenophobia is obviously the answer.   Because wanting more choice isn't politically correct, and anyone who opposes the education bureaucrats one-size-fits-all agenda is a racist.

[Хahar 🤔]

People who decry political correctness are generally those whose opinions run afoul thereof. If what one believes is offensive, it is also probably wrong.

[ag]

My supposed xenophobia is obviously the answer.   Because wanting more choice isn't politically correct, and anyone who opposes the education bureaucrats one-size-fits-all agenda is a racist.

Once again, to be clear. I don't the f.ck care about political correctness. But I sincerely hate nativists of all colors anywhere in the world, without prejudice to their color, creed or anything else about them. If you don't like calling your views racist, call them Humanitarian. In that case, I will hate Humanitarianism.

[Badger]

Your rational basis for opting out of learning English or math is what, exactly?  

It is exactly the same as your "rational basis" for opting out of any other language: I don't see any (except, possibly, xenophobia, in your case).

I guess that Spanish is arguably a more relevant language to learn than Arabic, since it's more widely spoken in the US doesn't count.  Or that I don't expect to go to a liberal arts college, so I'd be better off taking an occupational education class instead of any language doesn't count.

My supposed xenophobia is obviously the answer.   Because wanting more choice isn't politically correct, and anyone who opposes the education bureaucrats one-size-fits-all agenda is a racist.

Come on Cynic. Would you or the vast majority of parents who railed against this have been remotely as upset if the language chosen for mandatory instruction was, say, German? Or French?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Your rational basis for opting out of learning English or math is what, exactly?  

It is exactly the same as your "rational basis" for opting out of any other language: I don't see any (except, possibly, xenophobia, in your case).

I guess that Spanish is arguably a more relevant language to learn than Arabic, since it's more widely spoken in the US doesn't count.  Or that I don't expect to go to a liberal arts college, so I'd be better off taking an occupational education class instead of any language doesn't count.

My supposed xenophobia is obviously the answer.   Because wanting more choice isn't politically correct, and anyone who opposes the education bureaucrats one-size-fits-all agenda is a racist.

Come on Cynic. Would you or the vast majority of parents who railed against this have been remotely as upset if the language chosen for mandatory instruction was, say, German? Or French?

He didn't answer that question when I posed it.