Sen. Ted Kennedy is dead.

[anvi]

For one of the last great fighters for liberalism in American politics, rest in peace.  You will be missed. 

In honor of his lifelong cause, any health care bill that might pass the United States Congress and be signed by the president should be named after him.

[War on Want]

John D Ford:  So now we can start just assuming guilt of a crime and judge that person based on our assumptions?

Guilty until proven otherwise:  The Republican idea on justice.

Society can't put him in jail without convicting him, but any person can make their own private judgements about his culpability without waiting for a court verdict to tell them what to think.

True.

And likewise I feel the policies advocated by many conservatives have led to many deaths (far more than Sen. Kennedy was responsible for), and can thus dislike them for that even though they haven't been convicted in a court of law of murder.

I’m sorry, which canard are you introducing into the conversation?  The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by refusing to nationalize the health care system?

lol this is your argument? There are heaps of evidence against the idea of a private health insurance system saving lives.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Yeah nearly 20,000 people die because of the lack of access to care each year, and we're higher in terms of preventable deaths than other countries with national health care plans, so pretending it's a fringe argument to suggest we're killing people because of the lack of UHC is absurd and wholly disingenuous.

[Torie]

John D Ford:  So now we can start just assuming guilt of a crime and judge that person based on our assumptions?

Guilty until proven otherwise:  The Republican idea on justice.

Society can't put him in jail without convicting him, but any person can make their own private judgements about his culpability without waiting for a court verdict to tell them what to think.

True.

And likewise I feel the policies advocated by many conservatives have led to many deaths (far more than Sen. Kennedy was responsible for), and can thus dislike them for that even though they haven't been convicted in a court of law of murder.

I’m sorry, which canard are you introducing into the conversation?  The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by refusing to nationalize the health care system?

lol this is your argument? There are heaps of evidence against the idea of a private health insurance system saving lives.

I would appreciate an expansion by you EMD of the notion suggested in your last sentence that a single payer government system saves lives net. I tend to doubt that if only because the US spends so much more on health care than anyone else.  And one must bear in mind, that one must correct for the percentage of fats in a society, etc.  For example, even though Japanese tend to smoke like chimneys, they also have relatively few fats, and tend not to eat a lot of red meat.

And some preventable deaths might be due more to ignorance than lack of access. In any event, there are ways to afford access without a nationalized system actually, so it is not as if we have a Hobson's choice here.

[War on Want]

John D Ford:  So now we can start just assuming guilt of a crime and judge that person based on our assumptions?

Guilty until proven otherwise:  The Republican idea on justice.

Society can't put him in jail without convicting him, but any person can make their own private judgements about his culpability without waiting for a court verdict to tell them what to think.

True.

And likewise I feel the policies advocated by many conservatives have led to many deaths (far more than Sen. Kennedy was responsible for), and can thus dislike them for that even though they haven't been convicted in a court of law of murder.

I’m sorry, which canard are you introducing into the conversation?  The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by refusing to nationalize the health care system?

lol this is your argument? There are heaps of evidence against the idea of a private health insurance system saving lives.

I would appreciate an expansion by you EMD of the notion suggested in your last sentence that a single payer government system saves lives net. I tend to doubt that if only because the US spends so much more on health care than anyone else.  And one must bear in mind, that one must correct for the percentage of fats in a society, etc.  For example, even though Japanese tend to smoke like chimneys, they also have relatively few fats, and tend not to eat a lot of red meat.

And some preventable deaths might be due more to ignorance than lack of access. In any event, there are ways to afford access without a nationalized system actually, so it is not as if we have a Hobson's choice here.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that singly payer health care saves lives net, just suggesting that our current system sucks. Oh and on fats lowering our life expectancy, gastric bypass surgery on the morbidly obese on the whole saves a net amount of money and would increase that. Seeing as huge amounts of the morbidly obese don't have insurance that would cover for this, we have a problem there. There is also almost no way to get rid of these health problems without severly restricting our populace, which would be much more politically unpopular than universal health care.

Oh sure, I agree with you but there are whole variety of reasons why preventable deaths happen largely because of lack of access.

[The Dowager Mod]

Hopefully, Ted will take this opportunity to apologize in person to Mary Jo Kopechne.

Jackass.

[phk]

John D Ford:  So now we can start just assuming guilt of a crime and judge that person based on our assumptions?

Guilty until proven otherwise:  The Republican idea on justice.

Society can't put him in jail without convicting him, but any person can make their own private judgements about his culpability without waiting for a court verdict to tell them what to think.

True.

And likewise I feel the policies advocated by many conservatives have led to many deaths (far more than Sen. Kennedy was responsible for), and can thus dislike them for that even though they haven't been convicted in a court of law of murder.

I’m sorry, which canard are you introducing into the conversation?  The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by refusing to nationalize the health care system?

lol this is your argument? There are heaps of evidence against the idea of a private health insurance system saving lives.

I would appreciate an expansion by you EMD of the notion suggested in your last sentence that a single payer government system saves lives net. I tend to doubt that if only because the US spends so much more on health care than anyone else.  And one must bear in mind, that one must correct for the percentage of fats in a society, etc.  For example, even though Japanese tend to smoke like chimneys, they also have relatively few fats, and tend not to eat a lot of red meat.

And some preventable deaths might be due more to ignorance than lack of access. In any event, there are ways to afford access without a nationalized system actually, so it is not as if we have a Hobson's choice here.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that singly payer health care saves lives net, just suggesting that our current system sucks. Oh and on fats lowering our life expectancy, gastric bypass surgery on the morbidly obese on the whole saves a net amount of money and would increase that. Seeing as huge amounts of the morbidly obese don't have insurance that would cover for this, we have a problem there. There is also almost no way to get rid of these health problems without severly restricting our populace, which would be much more politically unpopular than universal health care.

Oh sure, I agree with you but there are whole variety of reasons why preventable deaths happen largely because of lack of access.

Or lack of self control. People tend to have a low Beta.

[The Duke]

Hopefully, Ted will take this opportunity to apologize in person to Mary Jo Kopechne.

Jackass.

Ideologue.

[War on Want]

Hopefully, Ted will take this opportunity to apologize in person to Mary Jo Kopechne.

Jackass.

Ideologue.

and you aren't an ideologue?

[Landslide Lyndon]

Hopefully, Ted will take this opportunity to apologize in person to Mary Jo Kopechne.

Jackass.

Ideologue.

and you aren't an ideologue?

Didn't you notice that he is considered the Mr. Congeniality of Atlas Forum?

[Alexander Hamilton]

Hopefully, Ted will take this opportunity to apologize in person to Mary Jo Kopechne.

Jackass.

Ideologue.

and you aren't an ideologue?

and you aren't an ideologue?

[The Duke]

When I called texasgurl an ideologue, I did not mean she was a person who had an ideology.  I meant she is willing to forgive someone's disgusting personal behavior as long as the serve her ideology.  She worships the power of the state and will support anyone who seeks to expand that power, tossing aside all other values to achieve this overriding goal.

The people who choose to ignore Kennedy's personal failings or dismiss them as insignificant are ideologues.  They are excusing the inexcusable in the service of an ideology.

And you should note, that I made no disaparaging comments wen Paul Wellstone and Daniel Moynihan died.  Why?  Because they were decent men who disagreed with me on political issues.  Ted Kennedy was not a decent man.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Hopefully, Ted will take this opportunity to apologize in person to Mary Jo Kopechne.

Jackass.

Ideologue.

and you aren't an ideologue?

to be an ideologue person need to have a brain

[Brittain33]

In other news, my mother just compared Teddy Kennedy to Michael Vick, proving there are depths unplumbed by even some of our star trolls.

[Brittain33]

In other news, my mother just compared Teddy Kennedy to Michael Vick, proving there are depths unplumbed by even some of our star trolls.

Although I am now hoping that she asked what I think about Michael Vick to change the subject and not to say "well, he had a messy personal life but was good in his day job, so is that ok?"

[Mechaman]

I've got something to say to all the people suggesting that Ted Kennedy deliberately drove a car into a body of water just to kill a young woman:

Why? Why would Ted Kennedy drive a friggin car into water on purpose just to kill somebody while risking himself possible grave bodily harm?

Somebody please give me a logical reason.

[Sbane]

I've got something to say to all the people suggesting that Ted Kennedy deliberately drove a car into a body of water just to kill a young woman:

Why? Why would Ted Kennedy drive a friggin car into water on purpose just to kill somebody while risking himself possible grave bodily harm?

Somebody please give me a logical reason.

There is none. Kennedy's actions that night were a bit suspicious leading us to believe that there may have been an affair or drinking and driving involved. But to say that Kennedy murdered that woman, without any proof, is retarded.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I've got something to say to all the people suggesting that Ted Kennedy deliberately drove a car into a body of water just to kill a young woman:

Why? Why would Ted Kennedy drive a friggin car into water on purpose just to kill somebody while risking himself possible grave bodily harm?

Somebody please give me a logical reason.

They will give you one, once they finish their quest for Obama's REAL birth certificate. 

[Mechaman]

I've got something to say to all the people suggesting that Ted Kennedy deliberately drove a car into a body of water just to kill a young woman:

Why? Why would Ted Kennedy drive a friggin car into water on purpose just to kill somebody while risking himself possible grave bodily harm?

Somebody please give me a logical reason.

They will give you one, once they finish their quest for Obama's REAL birth certificate. 

I found it I found it!

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

In other news, my mother just compared Teddy Kennedy to Michael Vick, proving there are depths unplumbed by even some of our star trolls.

Well, Michael Vick did drown some of his dogs, so the comparison isn't as absurd as it might seem at first glance, though still in bad taste to make at this time.

(Aside: I doubt there's anything Teddy could have done to save Mary Jo once he drove off the bridge, but I strongly suspect the delay in reporting was to let alcohol leave his system to avoid a DUI charge and that he lied about why he was driving with her.  The idea that he intentionally killed Mary Jo is absurd.)

[DownWithTheLeft]

I've got something to say to all the people suggesting that Ted Kennedy deliberately drove a car into a body of water just to kill a young woman:

Why? Why would Ted Kennedy drive a friggin car into water on purpose just to kill somebody while risking himself possible grave bodily harm?

Somebody please give me a logical reason.

To suggest that Ted Kennedy drove the car off the bridge with the intent of killing her is moronic, it was his course of action that he tried to cover his own ass rather than get her help that lead to her death.  Criminally neglient homicide is the correct term I believe

[Brittain33]

To suggest that Ted Kennedy drove the car off the bridge with the intent of killing her is moronic, it was his course of action that he tried to cover his own ass rather than get her help that lead to her death.  Criminally neglient homicide is the correct term I believe

How soon after the crash did she die?

Kennedy certainly tried to cover up for what happened and to a serious extent succeeded, and that's the scandal of Chappaquiddick. But her death was not avoidable after the crash to any extent, certainly not to any sense anyone can know that he could have saved her if he only wanted to and lied about trying. It's the pure moral certainty of people about those last points, coinciding with their disagreement with Kennedy's political views and ambitions, that I find so often revolting.

Fault him for drunk driving, probably. (It was a different time then when it was considered acceptable to drive unsafely--ask George W. Bush--but she was no less dead as a result.) Fault him for trying to hide after the fact. But to fault him for murder, as if he could have saved her and chose not to, is a leap too far and too much sanctimony to put up with again and again and again.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I'm sure she could have been saved if he had gotten help right away, she died quite some time later.  The fact is even if there was only slim hope, the fact that he didn't get her that slim hope is repulsive

[Brittain33]

I'm sure she could have been saved if he had gotten help right away, she died quite some time later.

She drowned. How much time is "some time later"? What was emergency response like in that place at that time?

Note that he obviously didn't have a car to get somewhere quickly, nor were cellphones invented yet, nor 911. The chance of anyone getting there within 20 minutes were nil.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I'm sure she could have been saved if he had gotten help right away, she died quite some time later.

She drowned. How much time is "some time later"? What was emergency response like in that place at that time?

I'm sure the emergency response was top notch, the Kennedy's wouldn't have it any other way