Should I go to church high tommorow?

[Gustaf]

I just find it very intriguing that you go to a neo-charismatic church and yet you find the 'laying on of hands' unusual; that's pretty standard fare. They actively believe in the endowment of spiritual gifts.

It's clear you go to the church for the music and the laid back atmosphere as an extension of the scene you're in to. Trust me, these churches know their markets

Vineyard Movement churches are often on an LGBT 'watch-list' (Southern Poverty Law Centre has been quite good about this too) more-so because many consider that gays are under a 'demonic' influence and are therefore subject to attempted exorcism.

This doesn't of course mean that this extends to the congregation, or even individual pastors and if so that is great news. However your church is affiliated with the Movement which has a relationship with the 'ex-gay' movement so you should always bear that in mind.

They may have a more honest understanding of what gay people are and what they are not in comparison to other churches (who usually resort to stereotype or downright lies), but nothing I have read suggests that they consider it a valid and equal lifestyle.

Lifestyle?

Yeah, not the best word But I don't shy away from it. Sleeping around if you're straight is a lifestyle, as is sleeping around if your gay. Settling down and getting married with a same sex partner is a lifestyle, as is getting married with an opposite sex partner. Sexuality is sexuality (and something that a casual glance at humanity and nature suggests is pretty diverse and this diversity is in animals seperated by millions if not hundreds of millions of years of evolution); what you do with it is a lifestyle.

What of course I find hypocritical is people who go around saying a 'lifestyle' is wrong not because of the lifestyle but because of the person's sexual orientation. If someone considers sleeping around to be wrong then for me it's fair to say that it's the same for people of all sexual orientations. If someone considers marriage, or the forming of a lifelong monogamous bond based on your sexual orientation to be ideal (which is what opposite sex marriage essentially is), then it's ideal for all sexualities.

It just so happens that alot of Christian churches, including ones that try to be 'inclusive' don't believe that same sex attraction should be expressed physically in any situation. Which is clearly double standards from my own non religious perspective.

Well, I thought the notion that being gay is a lifestyle, comparable to sleeping around, is precisely the sort of narrative pushed by the religious right and that gay people were deeply opposed to. Which made it amusing to see you use the term in this context.

[afleitch]

Well, I thought the notion that being gay is a lifestyle, comparable to sleeping around, is precisely the sort of narrative pushed by the religious right and that gay people were deeply opposed to. Which made it amusing to see you use the term in this context.

It's about reclaiming the narrative. Lifestyle is a broad term and I would argue that every facet of human sexuality is essentially a lifestyle, same too for the 'holy bits' the religious right seek to protect. Being gay is not lifestyle; it's a sexual orientation. Sleeping around is a lifestyle, having a threesome is a lifestyle, being mongamous is a lifestyle, getting married is a lifestyle.

[angus]

I think it'd be kind of interesting...never done it before.

I don't think it's a question you should try to answer the night before.  These decisions are best made at the time.  I've attended a mass high on coke.  And a few times low on weed.  I'd imagine that about half the folks there are high on something.  When visiting larger cities, sometimes I see frenzied folks, not particularly religious, but who take comfort in the pews as they duck, in a drug-induced paranoid frenzy.  It's not as though they sit around thinking about whether to attend mass high.  It's just that they get high and end up walking out into the streets, and at some point get either paranoid or depressed and come in to the church for its cover and comfort.  

Generally speaking, I think drugs are bad for you, and that you probably not should use them except to relieve pain or cure illness.  But you're young, have no dependents or anyone who looks up to you as a role model, so it's probably not that big a deal.  When I was your age I did all sorts of things drunk or stoned or high that I wouldn't dream of doing now.  I've attended class high, been to job interviews high, even operated machinery high.  Pretty stupid, really.  But sitting though the mass high isn't particularly dangerous, I suppose, unless you're on one of the more violent drugs.  If you're just going to smoke a joint to get mellow before communion, then I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.  

If you drive, though, you should probably wait till after you get the car stowed safely in the parish parking lot before torching up the crackpipe, if only for the sake of the pedestrians in the neighborhood.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I've never heard of them being involved in exorcising homosexuals (in fact googling it the only info I can find is that one of the founders of the Vineyard Movement was in fact gay, he was later disowned for this, but of course this was over 30 years ago.) I do remember what one guy on another forum said after he moved when he mentioned he went to a Vineyard church at his old place but wouldn't necessarily here because a lot of them are really bad. It doesn't surprise because it's not really a "denomination" per se (in fact most market themselves as non-denominational), so it's really up to whoever founds it whatever they're like. I just looked up the one in Iowa the guy visiting today came from, and I would never go to that one. Maybe it's a Minnesota thing because the St. Paul one looks fine too, seriously do these people look like a bunch of vicious holy rollers? http://saintpaulvineyard.com/images/saint-paul-crew.jpg

BTW if you check out the activity groups section you'll notice they have a "Beer Tasting", a "Bourbon and Whisky Appreciation Group" and a "Texas Hold 'em Poker Group". Consider that the way out there Pentecostal/charismatic crowd consider all alcohol consumption and gambling to be sins.

[afleitch]

I've never heard of them being involved in exorcising homosexuals (in fact googling it the only info I can find is that one of the founders of the Vineyard Movement was in fact gay, he was later disowned for this, but of course this was over 30 years ago.) I do remember what one guy on another forum said after he moved when he mentioned he went to a Vineyard church at his old place but wouldn't necessarily here because a lot of them are really bad. It doesn't surprise because it's not really a "denomination" per se (in fact most market themselves as non-denominational), so it's really up to whoever founds it whatever they're like. I just looked up the one in Iowa the guy visiting today came from, and I would never go to that one.

The Vineyard Movement is loose, but is organised pastors visit other churches within the movement and attend national conferences; there is still a link. Secondly, the co-pastor Jeff Heidkamp has an online presence that is curious. Again there's alot of talking about 'it's not a big issue', but then he (and a few hours) seems to be quite keen on engaging with Andrew Marin's patronising book about how to reach LGBT's. Essentially it's to 'love bomb' them in a respectful manner but still believe that homosexuality is a sin, that gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry and that people choose their sexual orientation.

There's nothing I've found related to your church that suggests the church or the pastors positively affirm committed gay relationships.

Posting pictures of what people look like, or links to the songs they listen to means nothing; it's all aesthetic if the core message of the church is the same.

Again, if you know any gays and lesbians attending the church, encourage them to find a genuine gay affirming church.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't mind posting their website: www.mercyvineyard.org

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I don't mind posting their website: www.mercyvineyard.org

[7,052,770]

When did you become a Pentecostal-type Christian, BRTD?  Does anyone at your church ever roll on the floor?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

When did you become a Pentecostal-type Christian, BRTD?

Never, considering that I'm not one.

Does anyone at your church ever roll on the floor?

LOL no. No speaking in tongues either. Like I said it's not so much a Pentecostal thing as a "young hipsters who like to be expressive and don't like sitting still" thing. Do you think most of the people in this video are Pentecostals? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFFHmV71AOo

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't mind posting their website: www.mercyvineyard.org

Looks so Happy Clappy.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I don't mind posting their website: www.mercyvineyard.org

Looks so Happy Clappy.

Yeah, that's kind of the point.

My mom is probably going with me there when she's down here in mid-September, she asked me if I'd take her because I haven't been to church with her in a very long time and she's quite curious as to what church I'd go to as she's impressed I'm going at all (which if you knew me as a teenager would make a lot of sense.) I have to wonder if she'll be a little creeped out.

[patrick1]

BRTD logic: Come on, do these guys look like they'd commit genocide?

[MaxQue]

a genuine gay affirming church.

That thing doesn't really exist, let's be honest.

[The Mikado]

a genuine gay affirming church.

That thing doesn't really exist, let's be honest.

https://www2.cathedralofhope.com/

All gay Church in Dallas, Texas.  Strange place (been inside their building once).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD logic: Come on, do these guys look like they'd commit genocide?

It was kind of a tongue-in-cheek ending to the post. My point is that there's no real logic beyond guilt by association that this church is any type of "pray the gay away" type of thing.

a genuine gay affirming church.

That thing doesn't really exist, let's be honest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Community_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_and_affirming

And that's not even getting into things like that Methodist church in southwest Minneapolis that has a sign that says "WELCOME" with each letter being a different color of the rainbow or the ELCA one in St. Paul with a lesbian lead minister and about 25% GLBT congregation...

[Badger]

BRTD logic: Come on, do these guys look like they'd commit genocide?

It was kind of a tongue-in-cheek ending to the post. My point is that there's no real logic beyond guilt by association that this church is any type of "pray the gay away" type of thing.

a genuine gay affirming church.

That thing doesn't really exist, let's be honest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Community_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_and_affirming

And that's not even getting into things like that Methodist church in southwest Minneapolis that has a sign that says "WELCOME" with each letter being a different color of the rainbow or the ELCA one in St. Paul with a lesbian lead minister and about 25% GLBT congregation...

And let's not forget:

http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/ 

Oh, and please don't go to church high. It's as classless as going drunk, and kind of misses the point.  My two ce4nts.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

UCC is pretty cool politically and theologically, but I haven't gone to any yet though I've always considered it even though I have their app on iPod Touch. The reason is because I'm under the impression they have boring services, some people actually dress up, traditional hymns, organs and choirs, people stand still and no clapping or hand raising, etc. How much truth to that?

[Badger]

UCC is pretty cool politically and theologically, but I haven't gone to any yet though I've always considered it even though I have their app on iPod Touch. The reason is because I'm under the impression they have boring services, some people actually dress up, traditional hymns, organs and choirs, people stand still and no clapping or hand raising, etc. How much truth to that?

Plenty, because the rest of that superficial frippery isn't the point.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Meh

I mean I get pretty crazy at just about anything I enjoy, I was almost unable to speak at the end of the party of the 2006 election and then there's obviously how I act at my music shows. I was more subdued at class in college, or at things like work meetings. Well Jesus Christ is cooler than all things (even Dude Fest!) and therefore I should act more while worshiping like I do at things I enjoy.

Also wouldn't dressing up be "superficial frippery"?

[afleitch]

UCC is pretty cool politically and theologically, but I haven't gone to any yet though I've always considered it even though I have their app on iPod Touch. The reason is because I'm under the impression they have boring services, some people actually dress up, traditional hymns, organs and choirs, people stand still and no clapping or hand raising, etc. How much truth to that?

So you're going to the church with conservative pentecostal/charismatic theology because their services are 'cool'? :/

It leads me to think that you don't really care that much about faith or theology or whether a church treats people with respect (and despite your protestations the pastor at your church does, from his online presence believe that people can become 'ex-gay') You just want your faith to be an extension to your music. That's it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Weren't you going to a Catholic church until you became a non-believer? Just saying...

I don't go to things that bore me. People who say things like "well the purpose of church isn't to entertain you" miss the point, I agree completely with what these people said in their first point. BTW come to think of it I don't think I've been to a church with pews in probably 5 years now except for my cousin's wedding last year.

I have only gone to this church regularly for the last month (prior to that it was very sporadically since 2008), so I haven't exactly made any commitments and I can assure you if I ever hear anything along the lines of "praying for those in deviant lifestyles to abandon" them or that seems to be encouraging to vote to ban gay marriage next year, I'm out of there. I'm also open to other places, there's another church I want to check out that I understand is also non-traditional and for a young hipster crowd, and where the lead pastor has a presence on some local radio where it has been made clear that he opposes the gay marriage ban vote. But I am the only person on this forum that has ever gone to this church, and the impression I've received is the odds of what I described back there ever happening is close to zero. The amount of times I've ever heard anyone being condemned or anything remotely close to fire and brimstone type content at this church so far by the way is also zero (and that's using a very loose definition of "fire and brimstone", that would include any references at all to Hell or the devil or anything like that. Because the amount of times I have heard of those things referenced is still literally zero.)

And as I noted before, conservative Pentecostal/charismatic theology holds all drinking and gambling to be sins, obviously not the case here. I believe most Pentecostals also consider tattoos sinful, and I doubt this crowd is too fond of women pastors or letting them preach in church. But above all that, I really don't think people in the conservative Pentecostal crowd would be too prone to stating that their purpose is not to force people into a certain beliefs or expecting them to transform to agreeing with them on everything...which is quite clearly done here in the "Our Values & Dreams" section.

[afleitch]

Weren't you going to a Catholic church until you became a non-believer? Just saying...

I hadn't attended church regularly except for weddings and special occasions since about 1999/2000. I have also experienced services at an Episcopalian church, a Quaker Meeting House, a Sikh Gurdwara and a Mosque.