Opinion of the Irish government during WWII

[12th Doctor]

I'm wondering why BRTD has not made similar threads about Sweden and Switzerland.  I wonder why, indeed.

[12th Doctor]

HP and miserable, worthless cowards. Furthermore their Prime Minister (or whatever word they use for that) actually sent some message of condolene after Hitler's death!

Ireland in WWII = epic fail.

It was very easy to be brave thousands of kilometers away from Germany, far outside of the range of German bombers or invasion forces and when are you several times bigger than Germany. And yet the US didn't join the allies until they were attacked themselves. And if Hitler hadn't been stupid enough to declare war on them, they probably wouldn't have joined the war against Germany either.
So perhaps you shouldn't speak so boldly.

But was the US full of German collaberators like all that IRA trash?

... Which contained something like a whole 70* members at the time, many of whom were in prison due to that very same Irish State you hate to so much.

* Obviously not exact, but the IRA was not a significant force in Irish politics from the 1930s onwards till their reformation at the end of the 60s.

Many of those IRA collaberators funnily enough considered themselves as communists btw.

This is one of those times that arguing with BRTD feels like kicking a baby.  He is just so tragically uninformed that I almost feel sorry for him.

[12th Doctor]

The use of that phrase on this forum was pretty much non-existant until it's introduction by Straha.

HP and miserable, worthless cowards. Furthermore their Prime Minister (or whatever word they use for that) actually sent some message of condolene after Hitler's death!

Ireland in WWII = epic fail.

Hmmm.. I believe our navy at the time consisted our precisely five dinghies, two rowing boats (but with only one oar between them) and a rubber duck... which would have been an interesting match for Die Kriegsmarine.

And how about Norway?

How about Norway?

Yeah.  Norway was neutral.  The Nazis simply invaded.  He has no point.

[12th Doctor]

The use of that phrase on this forum was pretty much non-existant until it's introduction by Straha.

HP and miserable, worthless cowards. Furthermore their Prime Minister (or whatever word they use for that) actually sent some message of condolene after Hitler's death!

Ireland in WWII = epic fail.

Hmmm.. I believe our navy at the time consisted our precisely five dinghies, two rowing boats (but with only one oar between them) and a rubber duck... which would have been an interesting match for Die Kriegsmarine.

And how about Norway?

Norway declared war on Germany?

The only two countries that actually declared war on Germany in the entire war were England and France, IIRC, and at the time of the declaration, neither had any intention of following through on it.

[12th Doctor]

Cowards.

Wasn't Russia sending supply trains to Germany up until the very moment Hitler invaded?

[12th Doctor]

Cowards.

Wasn't Russia sending supply trains to Germany up until the very moment Hitler invaded?

Whats your point?

That the Russians wouldn't have fought either, indeed, were perfectly willing to support Hitler, until Hitler attacked them.

[12th Doctor]

Cowards.

Wasn't Russia sending supply trains to Germany up until the very moment Hitler invaded?

Whats your point?

That the Russians wouldn't have fought either, indeed, were perfectly willing to support Hitler, until Hitler attacked them.

Actually we won the war.

Well... not only does that have nothing to do with the point, but had the United State not been feeding your asses, then if would have been hard for you to fight.  Moreover, if the British not have obliterated the Luftwaffe, and knocked the Nazi invasion schedule off several weeks, then the Germans would have steamrolled you guys over pretty quick.

[12th Doctor]

But, I'll bet they didn't teach you that in Soviet school

[12th Doctor]

Cowards.

Wasn't Russia sending supply trains to Germany up until the very moment Hitler invaded?

Whats your point?

That the Russians wouldn't have fought either, indeed, were perfectly willing to support Hitler, until Hitler attacked them.

Actually we won the war.

Well... not only does that have nothing to do with the point, but had the United State not been feeding your asses, then if would have been hard for you to fight.  Moreover, if the British not have obliterated the Luftwaffe, and knocked the Nazi invasion schedule off several weeks, then the Germans would have steamrolled you guys over pretty quick.

Lets say the fascists took Moscow. They would have had guerilla warfare to deal with far worse than Vietnam was for you guys.

While this still has absolutely nothing to do with the point (total non-sequitur on your part)... what, exactly would that matter?  You still would not have defeated the Nazis.

The other recent historical myth that confounds me is this notion that the Soviet Union could have utterly defeated Germany on their own.  Never could have happened.  Even if the Soviet Union had not surrendered, if the Nazis had destroyed the Red Army, driven on the Urals, etc, then it would have been very difficult for the Soviets to drive the Germans back out of the country.

And I question your basic assumption, as well.  Soviet resistance behind the line in real life was relatively insignificant compared to what was going on at the front.

[12th Doctor]

And you still have failed to address the point that the Russians were no less cowardly, and in fact, were worse than the Irish.

Russia was allied with Germany.  They had a deal with the Germans to duel up Eastern Europe.  How is it you have so much "Russian Pride" but can criticize Ireland, or Western "cowards"?

[12th Doctor]

And you still have failed to address the point that the Russians were no less cowardly, and in fact, were worse than the Irish.

Russia was allied with Germany.  They had a deal with the Germans to duel up Eastern Europe.  How is it you have so much "Russian Pride" but can criticize Ireland, or Western "cowards"?

Oh right, we're the cowards. All we did was defend our homeland. While your country was safe thousands of miles away from danger.

I didn't say that the Russians were cowards, did I?  I said that, if you are going to call this Irish cowards for their neutrality then surely you must hold the Russians to the same standard.

You are the one throwing stones here.  You also happen to be the one in the glass house.  You figure it out.

[12th Doctor]

Who do I blame for the rise of Nazism and the severity of the Second World War?  

All of humanity.  

There were plenty of people all over the world who could have stopped Hitler, or at least stopped the situation from become as bad as it was.

There is something in the human experience that leads to scapegoating, and fear mongering.  There is something in the human experience that makes people think "not my problem".  There is something in the human experience that leads people to sellout other people, and their values for a little bit of temporary peace and security and I dare say comfort.

Then, you have the other side of humanity.  Thank God the there were a handful of influential people who were still ruled by that side.

[12th Doctor]

Who do I blame for the rise of Nazism and the severity of the Second World War?  

All of humanity.  

There were plenty of people all over the world who could have stopped Hitler, or at least stopped the situation from become as bad as it was.

There is something in the human experience that leads to scapegoating, and fear mongering.  There is something in the human experience that makes people think "not my problem".  There is something in the human experience that leads people to sellout other people, and their values for a little bit of temporary peace and security and I dare say comfort.

Then, you have the other side of humanity.  Thank God the there were a handful of influential people who were still ruled by that side.

Thats fair.

The might be the fastest change of heart in the history of cardiac shifting.

But, I'll accept it and move on.

[12th Doctor]

The Russians, along with Sweden and Switzerland, never did any mourning for Hitler.

Seriously, if you think you are going to provoke me, you aren't because you just look like a total idiot.

[12th Doctor]

It's a historical fact. Irish PM gave a message of condolences over Hitler's death.

BTW:

Moreover, if the British not have obliterated the Luftwaffe, and knocked the Nazi invasion schedule off several weeks, then the Germans would have steamrolled you guys over pretty quick.

Ooooh, but I thought those British were just evil imperialist thugs who all deserve to get blown up to the last person because they continue to occupy a small part of our glorious nation that my ancestors were forced out of centuries ago and that I've never been to but supposedly have some valid grudge, blah blah blah...OK, impression over.

1) He did so against the advice of almost everyone else in the Irish government.

2) Perhaps you should look at my posts in which I called the IRA a terrorist organization.  But, wait, you did see them, because you commented on them.  So you are just a stupid, petty, little, poser, ignorant, asshole, mother f**ker.  It would be beneath the dignity of anyone to have to take you seriously, and no one does, so I could personally care less what you have to say.

[12th Doctor]

It's a historical fact. Irish PM gave a message of condolences over Hitler's death.

BTW:

Moreover, if the British not have obliterated the Luftwaffe, and knocked the Nazi invasion schedule off several weeks, then the Germans would have steamrolled you guys over pretty quick.

Ooooh, but I thought those British were just evil imperialist thugs who all deserve to get blown up to the last person because they continue to occupy a small part of our glorious nation that my ancestors were forced out of centuries ago and that I've never been to but supposedly have some valid grudge, blah blah blah...OK, impression over.

1) He did so against the advice of almost everyone else in the Irish government.

2) Perhaps you should look at my posts in which I called the IRA a terrorist organization.  But, wait, you did see them, because you commented on them.  So you are just a stupid, petty, little, poser, ignorant, asshole, mother f**ker.  It would be beneath the dignity of anyone to have to take you seriously, and no one does, so I could personally care less what you have to say.

I was not referring to you in that post, or even anyone in particular. Rather just the many whiny Irish-Americans I've heard.

First off, you came out of nowhere with one of my posts, totally unrelated to what was being said, so I am pretty sure that your aim was to try to piss me off, regardless of who you were "parodying".

Second, I don't talk like that.  No one else on the forum talks like that.  So there is no reason to mock us like that.

Third, you are trivializing alot of real human suffering that went on by doing that.  Do you have any idea how bad English rule was in Ireland?  Do you have idea how bad the potato famine was?  It's almost as bad as trivializing the Holocaust.  Regardless of the over-the-top feelings of some people, mocking it is completely uncalled for.

You are a real piece of sh**t, you know that?  You will post your ass off about how great this group of people, or that group of people is, no matter what horrible things they have done, because their "ideals" match up with your own.  But just because a country is Catholic, you don't like those people.  You mock them.  You trivialize their suffering.  And on and on.

You have a real problem.  It's pathological.  I have been informed that it is not limited to the forum.  Seek help.

[12th Doctor]

I also note the conspicuousness of the fact that this poll started out as "your opinion of the Irish government during WWII" and you very quickly turned it into a thread to bash all the Irish in general.

[12th Doctor]

The Irish Potato famine... clearly not planned.  In the old days, meaning when I was 15 or so, I would have thought so, but not anymore.

However, the systematic oppression of the Irish people, which in large part led to the famine and the rather lackadaisical English response was enforced in British society at the time.

I once heard it said, quite bluntly that (and I stress I am quoting here) "The Irish are Europe's ns".  And there is certainly alot of truth to that, as the Irish were treated as a sub-human population in the media, and culture, and governmental institutions.

[12th Doctor]

And the Irish were also frequently used as a tool in someone else's struggle, and forced to pay the full brunt of the after effects.

[12th Doctor]

The Irish Potato famine... clearly not planned.  In the old days, meaning when I was 15 or so, I would have thought so, but not anymore.

However, the systematic oppression of the Irish people, which in large part led to the famine and the rather lackadaisical English response was enforced in British society at the time.

I once heard it said, quite bluntly that (and I stress I am quoting here) "The Irish are Europe's ns".  And there is certainly alot of truth to that, as the Irish were treated as a sub-human population in the media, and culture, and governmental institutions.

Yes that is true... but also by Americans as well.



Guess who is who?

Though it became quite popular in the 70s and 80s in a shallow way to identify Irish people as "the blacks of europe" oppressed and downtrodden throughout history ("Most Oppressed People on Earth" or MOPE as Conor Cruise O'Brien put it). That image also implied a sensuality or artistic talent or purity of spirit or you know the rest that "the whites" or "mainstream society OMG!!11" had lost. We like our cliched images, unfortunetly economic success and liberalism killed it off in the 1990s.

As for the famine, British response was at best... contradictory. Let us recall that as millions were starving large shipments of oats and grain were being exported out of Dublin quite regularly without any qualm on behalf of the government at all. (*Insert anti-libertarian comment here*)

However the more general story of the oppression (whatever that is) of the "Irish people" (whoever they are) is something a lot more vague and unclear, partly because history teaches us that the Irish were as good as the English if not better in oppressing the Irish.

I'm all too aware of the image of the Irish in early America.  It took tens of thousands of Irish fighting and dying in the Civil War, on both sides, before that lifted up... and even then, it took a while.

And yes, you are correct, there were plenty of sellouts all over Ireland.  That's kinda what I meant when I was talking about people sucking the Irish into their conflicts.  Irish factionalism was always easy to take advantage of, even though the collaborators (on any side) usually weren't large in numbers.

[12th Doctor]

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Don't forget the conscription riots during that war in Irish districts and that Irish workers sometimes lived in conditions worse than those of slaves. However on the counter view it should be pointed out that there are more Irish American Protestants than Irish American Catholics... due in part to 18th century migration and not just the Ulster Scots at that. On average the poorest of the poor did not migrate, they tended to stay and starve to death or to tried to obstruct their landlord or the state or the universe, etc... most migrants tended to be what we now recognize as lower middle class. Many were the second sons and daughters of small town landowners who had nothing left to do in Ireland except perhaps become a priest (if male) or be married off to someone else first son (if female). This at a time where in certain places people didn't get married until well into their 40s (this is the post-famine period I'm talking of here... the period where the Catholic Church really started to have the lever on rural small town Irish society which most people incorrectly belief it had since time memorial).

On another note, even until quite recently in parts of Britain Irish immigrants were seen as the lowest of the low. Now hate is put mainly towards blacks and asians instead. Success!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWmf3Waio9E

[12th Doctor]

That's your defense?  Seriously?