Will gay marriage be a major issue in the 2008 presidential election?

[afleitch]

A few points here as this issue is often done to death.

1. Phil - shut up, or at least think before you speak you're embarassing yourself and fellow members of 'your' Church. You're borderline hysteric.

2. I know a priest quite well who is gay. He is a priest above all that and has said to me he would have entered the priesthood regardless of his sexuality as that was his calling. I know it, he know's it and some of the parish know's it but he has to watch his back because all it takes is a few whispers and a vindictive parishoner and he may not be saying Mass next Sunday.There is a code of silence in his church to protect him because he is a wonderful priest.

He defended a fellow 'straight' priest who advised a gay parishioner to re-consider his marriage to a woman and the damage that was doing to both himself and his wife. That priest was removed from the parish.

3. It is important to seperate lay Catholics and even priests from the bishops and the cardinals et al. Priests are closer to the people and I think if you asked them privately if they knew any gay priests they would simply nod and say it doesn't matter.

[afleitch]

I'm borderline hysteric? How the hell am I embarrassing myself and my Church? Because you, a gay Catholic, don't like what I'm saying?

No, because of how you tried to string it together.

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I didn't have a problem with what he was saying. He made some valid points that you tooks cheap shots at rather than trying to answer.

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I am sorry I asked to to shut up, I shouldn't have said that. But being tolerant on matters regarding the state is one thing, understanding the position of gays within the Church is another. If you want to even begin to understand that then you listen to the experiences of those who are partners with gay Catholics and those who are themselves gay and practicing Catholics. That is what brittain was tring to raise and I was trying to respond to.

[afleitch]

I'm tired of you have the high ground because you're gay and a practicing Catholic. Basically, it's Andrew does no wrong an alarming amount of the time. Before you tell me that I don't understand the experiences, please remember that you don't know me as well as you think you do. I have friends that deal with this (maybe not marriage but life as a gay person as a very active member of the Church) and show me much more respect than you extended to me. What you said earlier was nasty and embarrassing. I know it's easy to go after the lone debater on the other side but it was totally uncalled for.

Well Phil, I already quickly apologised for telling you to 'shut' up. There is nothing else I can say.

And I don't take the high ground on this, I actually keep a pretty low profile now that i've found a parish, a congregation and a priest that I am comfortable with (and vice versa)

[afleitch]

You most certainly take the high ground on this forum on this subject. I know from previous butting of heads with you on these topics. Anyway, as the gay Catholic, you win. I lose. I was the one apparently taking cheap shots. I'm still the "anti gay" voice here as a supporter of civil unions.

There are some battles on our beloved forum that some of us will just never win. It's a shame really but it's reality.

I didn't say you were anti-gay. I made no reference to that at all - you were the one that brought that up. I was saying, quite clearly that the position of gays in civil society and in the state is a different issue from from the position of gays in the Church. I never even had a problem with what you said on the matter, only the tone which you adpoted when putting your points across. And you're still using that 'scorned' tone which is unfortunate as it makes it difficult to discuss things with you.

[afleitch]

Again, it's the instinct to go after the straight guy defending the Church (and apparently being intolerant of gays). That's why you felt the need to say, "Phil, shut up. You're embarrassing yourself and your Church." It's a real pity you didn't bother to read through the thread before you jumped at me.

Phil

Once again - I said you 'embarassed' the Church because as a fellow Catholic you were pretty awful in putting your point across. I don't care what the hell your point was, whether it was pro or anti anything, it was put across poorly and yes it was 'borderline hysterical' at points (Alcon noted it too, but was more tactful than I was in saying so.)

I am not 'going after the straight guy' (you know I'm not that tribal) What I said above, that's what I pulled you up for. Not what you said and what he said, and what you think about civil unions or, what sexuality you are or he is or I am.

I don't know where you got this into your head that it was about 'the gays' and your stance on the issues.

[afleitch]

Bottom line is that you didn't feel the need to put brittain in his place after he resorted to Church bashing and patronizing. It's something he has now even admitted to and you still say that you didn't have a problem with his conduct. Fair? I don't think so.

I don't know him. I know you. And I knew you were above the level at which you decided to take the argument. When a poster you know and quite like goes off on one then you tend to try and reel them in. People do that to me too.