Israeli Airstrikes on Gaza

[GMantis]

Why do these attacks remind me of something? Ah yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hot_Winter
Didn't work very well though. Considering Hamas' tactics, probably only a complete occupation could stop the rocket attacks, in other words a return to the situation before 2005. That it has come to this is largely the responsibility of Hamas, but Israel's decision to treat the entire Gaza strip as a terrorist territory certainly haven't helped. And if they continue with their tactics of collective punishment, then peace will be very, very far away.

No no no, clearly none of this would happen if the Jews would all just die...or, if failing that, at least just all move somewhere else.  The Pali's are a peaceful people and would get along with their neighbors just fine if those god danged Jews would just cease to exist.

We're really going to miss Xahar during these aren't we?

It's very easy to make strawman attacks on people who can't defend themselves, isn't it?

[GMantis]

I wasn't implying that my sarcastic paragraph is something Xahar would write.  At least that wasn't my intention.  He clearly isn't the only one here that thinks the Jews should leave the Middle East.

I doubt that there are many actually.
What Xahar said was that Israel should never have been created in the first place, which is quite reasonable.

[GMantis]

Close

Israel is a nation (right or wrong)

Hamas is attacking Israelie civlians from civilian areas

Israel is attacking those sites and doing their damndest not to hit civilians

If Hamas would stop and respect Israel (again right or wrong) Israel would also leave them alone

Somewhat close

Israel is a nation (right or wrong)

Hamas is attacking indiscriminately from a very densely populated area

Israel is attacking those sites and doing it with extremely heavy firepower, making it very hard not to hit civilians in the overcrowded Gaza strip

If Hamas would stop and respect Israel (again right or wrong) Israel would only blockade them

[GMantis]

well, I can think of a couple of signs that have come to pass:
1) reformation of Israel
2) increase in wickedness
3) nations begin to turn against Israel

That was true in 1948.

[GMantis]

Close

Israel is a nation (right or wrong)

Hamas is attacking Israelie civlians from civilian areas

Israel is attacking those sites and doing their damndest not to hit civilians

If Hamas would stop and respect Israel (again right or wrong) Israel would also leave them alone

Somewhat close

Israel is a nation (right or wrong)

Hamas is attacking indiscriminately from a very densely populated area

Israel is attacking those sites and doing it with extremely heavy firepower, making it very hard not to hit civilians in the overcrowded Gaza strip

If Hamas would stop and respect Israel (again right or wrong) Israel would only blockade them

Agreed...except for the last line.  If the Pali's grew up, Israel would have to end any blockade.  But before we can ever get there, the asshats need to stop firing randomly into Israel.  End of story.

Israel began the blockade as soon as Hamas was elected. Not that sending missiles is the best way to improve relations, but one must not forget the proper timeline of events.

[GMantis]

What is the point of democracy if countries are penalised for making a democratic choice?

[GMantis]

That is the point.  They are free to elect terrorists if they want and Israel's democratically elected govt is free to close their borders when they do.  If they want peace with Israel maybe they shouldn't willingly chose to elect terrorist leaders.

Israel felt safe to do this because the EU and the US had hypocritically called on Palestine to democratise and then had condemned their choice.

[GMantis]

That is the point.  They are free to elect terrorists if they want and Israel's democratically elected govt is free to close their borders when they do.  If they want peace with Israel maybe they shouldn't willingly chose to elect terrorist leaders.

Israel felt safe to do this because the EU and the US had hypocritically called on Palestine to democratise and then had condemned their choice.

The actions of Hamas are to continue to call for Israel's destruction. They're being punished for that, not the fact they were elected. If other democracies did that sort of thing, they'd be punished.

The reason Hamas are terrorists is because of their methods, not their beliefs.

At the time Hamas was starting to adopt more moderate (relatively speaking, of course) positions. In any case, punishing the entire country because of the government elected doesn't send a strong message for democracy. It doesn't help the opposition either.

[GMantis]

That is the point.  They are free to elect terrorists if they want and Israel's democratically elected govt is free to close their borders when they do.  If they want peace with Israel maybe they shouldn't willingly chose to elect terrorist leaders.

Israel felt safe to do this because the EU and the US had hypocritically called on Palestine to democratise and then had condemned their choice.

The actions of Hamas are to continue to call for Israel's destruction. They're being punished for that, not the fact they were elected. If other democracies did that sort of thing, they'd be punished.

The reason Hamas are terrorists is because of their methods, not their beliefs.

At the time Hamas was starting to adopt more moderate (relatively speaking, of course) positions. In any case, punishing the entire country because of the government elected doesn't send a strong message for democracy. It doesn't help the opposition either.

Which you can also apply to Israel and historically apartheid South Africa.

Hamas are still launching rockets at Israel with the aim of killing innocent civilians. That is unacceptable.

How can you apply this to Israel. The diffeence between the Palestine and South Africa is the absence of democratic elections in the later.
That is true. However, the blockade began in 2006, when Hamas had declared a truce and before any major attacks had begun.

[GMantis]

How can you apply this to Israel. The diffeence between the Palestine and South Africa is the absence of democratic elections in the later.

Israelis elected their current government.

South Africa, while only whites could vote, did have elections.

Who has condemned Israel for their current elected government?
I said democratic elections.

[GMantis]

Israel's response was justified. Hamas has continually acted irresponsibly and will not come to an agreement with Israel, simply because they are Jewish.

No, they won't come to an agreement because Israel is situated on land Hamas considers Palestinian; if the Israelis were Buddists, they wouldn't come to agreement either.

[GMantis]

I'd have more sympathy for Israel if they weren't Hamas' primary source of support and funds in the 80s.

This is probably asking for a lot...but cite?

I'm not sure if Israel could be called Hamas' "primary source of support", but I also read something along those lines once... the bottomline is that Hamas was originally aided by Israel because the organization was seen as competitor and counterbalance to the PLO/Fatah. Of course, this was in times when Fatah was Israel's main enemy. Support the Hamas and weaken the Fatah. Divide and conquer.

Which worked rather nicely in 2007.

[GMantis]

I'd have more sympathy for Israel if they weren't Hamas' primary source of support and funds in the 80s.

This is probably asking for a lot...but cite?

I'm not sure if Israel could be called Hamas' "primary source of support", but I also read something along those lines once... the bottomline is that Hamas was originally aided by Israel because the organization was seen as competitor and counterbalance to the PLO/Fatah. Of course, this was in times when Fatah was Israel's main enemy. Support the Hamas and weaken the Fatah. Divide and conquer.

Which worked rather nicely in 2007.

Except that Hamas wasn't supported by Israel in 2007, but 20-30 years earlier. Clearly another occurence of "The enemy of my enemy doctrine bites me in the ass".

It's still better for Israel than an unified Palestine territory.

[GMantis]

By the way, could some of Israel's apologists explain how expelling Palestinians from their houses helps the defense the Israel? It's also interesting why they stop journalists from entering Gaza.

[GMantis]

No expelling, just warning some who live in areas which will be bombed to get out if they value their lives. There were also one or two incidents of using a house to base themselves in for a short period of time, which is of course is absolutely necessary.

No, they are expelling people from areas they have already occupied.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4162193/Gaza-medics-describe-horror-of-strike-which-killed-70.html

Concerning the journalist situation, the IDF explained themselves that it was a security risk. As I'm sure you'd agree, it's best to leave such operational decisions to the experts on the ground. Anyway, from yesterday, journalists were allowed in attached to IDF units.

Yes, the revealing of unpleasant details of Israel's actions is probably a security risk.

[GMantis]

The IDF targest Hamas and because of where Hamas operate from, they often kill nearby civilians.  

No, Israel targets Hamas, anywhere were there might be Hamas militants and and anywhere were there probably aren't Hamas fighers, but they attack just to be sure.
Like this, for example:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5053R720090107
Of course, I'm certain that the defenders will be along in a short time to explain how there were actually Hamas fighers in the school and how Israel can recognize dead Hamas fighers without ever seeing them.