Is the federal minimum wage constitutional?

[khirkhib]

Considering that many if not most of the 59% of people that earn the  minimum wage and do not live with family are currently living in poverty I would expect they would drop from poverty to absolute destitution.  Maybe good Christians would make up the difference  by donating money to poverty assitance charities but I doubt it.

However, and to surprise some, I am not for a federal minimum wage at all because in many ways it doesn't make sense.  I think that the minimum wage is to low but it isn't too low in the same way in Montana as it is in Georgia.  Simply because the cost of living is different in different places in the country and whatever minimum wage the US creates will be too low in a matter of months because of inflation.  That is why I think that the US should strongly suggest to US states to create a livable wage (we could say that livable is above the poverty line for a full time job) and that states and communities would use that as a guidle line to indicate their inflation adjusted minimum wages.




http://www.epionline.org/mw_statistics_state.cfm

Look Here for more info (I can't believe I recommending a union web page on this site)

http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/minimumwage/myths/index.cfm

Realities: The minimum wage is approaching historical lows.

The minimum wage in 2001 was 21 percent less than the minimum wage in 1979, and 27 percent less than at its highest point in 1968, after adjusting for inflation.

If the minimum wage in 2001 had been worth what it was worth in 1968, the minimum wage in 2001 would have been $7.08.

If the minimum wage is not increased, its real value will fall to $4.82 by the year 2004—lower than all but one year (1989) since 1955.

[khirkhib]

So Mikem what would you have these "unskilled" laborers do.  What is your viable alternative.  Should they become criminals? Should they sell their organs or their children?  Should they work $100 hour weeks just to stay in debt?  Should they become subsistance farmers and live off the land? Or should they just die? Would you have them die? What would you have them do?  I agree with Lunar the minimum wage goes a long way in checking that destructive aspect of capitalism but it does not even provide enough to keep many people out of poverty.  I don't think that many people on this site truly understand the distopia that they would create if they were in charge of things.  You may not like the idea of the minimum wage, the concept may offend your finer captilistic tastes but we live in a real world where we have real problems that we have to deal with and eliminating the minimum wage does BUBKIS in fixing those (actually it would probably make things a lot worse as far as Standard of Living goes).

[khirkhib]

Alright Phillip.  I can make your legal arguement using the constitution.

Clause 1: The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties imports and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United State; but all duties imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

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A duty, as well as being a tax on imports is also, an act or course of action required of one by position, custom, law or religion.  So this clause can be read that Congress has the power to lay the duty, or create the law, that businesses provide their employees a minimum salery that would promote the general welfare of the US and to do so uniformally thorughout the US.

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Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.

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Commerce is defined in the dictionary as: the exchange or buying and selling of goods, commodities, property, or services.  So it is pretty clear that the US Congress gave themselves the power to regulate the exchange of services in the various states in the country this would give them the power to create a minimum wage for services rendered.
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Clause 5: To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures.

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A measure is a dimensions, quantity, or capacity as ascertained by comparison with a standard.  So the US Congress has the power to regulate the standard  of all wieghts and measure,  they did not limit this clause to matters of weight and distance so we can safely assume that it includes all things that can be measured including the value of a persons work.  The US Congress has the power to establish what the base measure for labor or the minimum wage.

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Now is this what you wanted to hear,  probably not but it looks like it is constitutional to me.  And as for you Mikem that is a completely impractical answer.  We live in a real world, sure you say crime could go up.  So what we should build more prisons,  Look we are trying to live in a nation, you know, United We Stand, mabye we should try to have a functioning country.

[khirkhib]

Yeah, Philip - you can interpret the constitution your way to.  But since duty is also noun a moral and legal oblgation, since among is also defined as noun in or through the midst of : surrounded by   and Clause 5 clearly says that they have the power to fix the standard of measures and measure is defined as an adequate or due portion you can easily interpret these clauses as allowing the US congress to create a minimum wage.  Don't trust me go check the dictionary.  http://www.m-w.com .  Sure, your interpretations of the words probably give the government additional powers in relationship to international trade, and I'm not saying that the US constitutional made international trade unconstitional, I'm just saying that it also lays the ground for creating a minimum wage.

Now for whatever reason you may not like minimum wage, maybe you think it is bad for the economy.  Maybe you think that people that earn minimum wage are stupid and smelly and don't deserve the tupence that minimum wage gives them but that is more of a value statement.  Just like I can have a value statement like anybody who would dodge the draft, that is not a pacisfist, in a world war II situation is a complete a-hole and shouldn't really have any say at all in what the government can and cannot do.

[khirkhib]

That's your opinion Philip. 
One that wouldn't be very convincing in the court of law. 

I reference you to McCulloch vs Maryland (1812)

". . . Although, among the enumerated powers of government, we do not find the word “bank” or “incorporation,” we find the great powers to lay and collect taxes; to borrow money; to regulate commerce; to declare and conduct a war; and to raise and support armies and navies . . . But it may with great reason be contended, that a government, entrusted with such ample powers . . . must also be entrusted with ample means for their execution. The power being given, it is the interest of the nation to facilitate its execution. . . . "

— Chief Justice John Marshall


Other things that this case has shown the constitution allows:

Congress to establish the United States Air Force
Congress to establish national parks.
Congress to create federal laws against pollution.
Congress to make laws regarding discrimination in employment
Congress to decide that televisions should have V-chips that enable parents to block certain shows
Congress to pass the Gun-Free School Zones Act prohibiting anyone from possessing a firearm in a school zone
Congress  to give licenses to broadcasters to play music on the radio.

People that espouse the constititionallity of this or the unconstitionality of that are generally pretty hypocrtical.   There really are no TRUE constructionists.  Just people who selectively use the constitution to justify  there (generally mean-spirited and unpopular) opinion.


And while you are homeschooling yourself today Philip you could learn a whole bunch more about the constitution and the supreme court at http://www.landmarkcases.org/ .  I think it would do your mind some good.

[khirkhib]

You are right John Ford and Clause 3 is the one that is used, generally, when arguing for minimum wage.  My other two examples were, well for more justification and fun.
 
If  the government wanted to collect the weight a horse must carry in a handicap race, well I say that if it makes a better country and it promoted the general welfare, why not.  The constition certainly doesn't prohibit them from doing so.  Who am I or you for that matter to say with any real degree of certainty what our fore fathers were thinking when the put the constitution together 200 years ago.  I can tell you one thing for certain though they had the foresight to know that situtation would arise that would necessitate the government a degree of flexibility.  Our modern world is not what it was 200 years ago so I'll give them some latitude.  Though today all Americans are free.  We now do count Indians and African Americans are no longer considered 3/5ths of a person.

And as hack as you may think I am.  You and I know that I have the winning arguement.  I have the arguement that has won in the Supreme Court. 

more later

 

[khirkhib]

No, I'm not saying that the supreme court isn't infallible but I'm also not claiming that the framers of the constitution were infallible in the creation of the constitution and specific mentioned every piece of legislation that would ever need to be used by the federal government.

[khirkhib]

I know Ford, I understand why.  The others were just example of interpretation and I wrote them down before I looked up the specific court case but thank you for agreeing that the minimum wage is constituional.