Is the federal minimum wage constitutional?

[A18]

The Supreme Court is nuts. You'd think even the most liberal activist judge would have struck this down.

[Alcon]

Why do you think it unconstitutional?

[A18]

Why do you think it unconstitutional?

The burden of proof is on the other side.

Something is unconstitutional unless the Constitution explicitly authorizes it. What part of the document does that?

[Bugs]

I am curious about minimum wage in foreign countries.  There are people from many countries on this forum.  Can you help me? What kind of minimum wage laws do you have, if any?

I don't mean to hijack the thread.  I don't have a problem with the constitutionality of minimum wage laws, but I don't interpret the Constitution strictly.  Even Jefferson admitted the Louisiana Purchase didn't fit a strict interpretation, but he bought it anyway.   

[Alcon]

Why do you think it unconstitutional?

The burden of proof is on the other side.

Something is unconstitutional unless the Constitution explicitly authorizes it. What part of the document does that?

Not a big fan of the 10th amendment, are you?

[khirkhib]

Considering that many if not most of the 59% of people that earn the  minimum wage and do not live with family are currently living in poverty I would expect they would drop from poverty to absolute destitution.  Maybe good Christians would make up the difference  by donating money to poverty assitance charities but I doubt it.

However, and to surprise some, I am not for a federal minimum wage at all because in many ways it doesn't make sense.  I think that the minimum wage is to low but it isn't too low in the same way in Montana as it is in Georgia.  Simply because the cost of living is different in different places in the country and whatever minimum wage the US creates will be too low in a matter of months because of inflation.  That is why I think that the US should strongly suggest to US states to create a livable wage (we could say that livable is above the poverty line for a full time job) and that states and communities would use that as a guidle line to indicate their inflation adjusted minimum wages.




http://www.epionline.org/mw_statistics_state.cfm

Look Here for more info (I can't believe I recommending a union web page on this site)

http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/minimumwage/myths/index.cfm

Realities: The minimum wage is approaching historical lows.

The minimum wage in 2001 was 21 percent less than the minimum wage in 1979, and 27 percent less than at its highest point in 1968, after adjusting for inflation.

If the minimum wage in 2001 had been worth what it was worth in 1968, the minimum wage in 2001 would have been $7.08.

If the minimum wage is not increased, its real value will fall to $4.82 by the year 2004—lower than all but one year (1989) since 1955.

[John Dibble]

Why do you think it unconstitutional?

The burden of proof is on the other side.

Something is unconstitutional unless the Constitution explicitly authorizes it. What part of the document does that?

Not a big fan of the 10th amendment, are you?

So what part of the 10th amendment authorizes the FEDERAL government to have minimum wage laws?

[Kodratos]

There is nothing in the constitution that forbids a minimum wage, end of story.

[John Dibble]

There is nothing in the constitution that forbids a minimum wage, end of story.

So where in the constitution does it say that the federal government is allowed to do more than the powers that are granted to it by the constitution?

Seriously, just looking at history would show that the founders wanted a very limited federal government. The Articles of Confederation were before the Constitution, and they had a much weaker federal government - they only opted to give a few more powers to the federal government, via the Constitution, because it was too weak to do it's functions. The AoC show a desire for a small federal government with more power to the states. The Constitution is meant to be interpreted pretty strictly.

[Richard]

Yes it is unconstitutional and should be abolished.

[JohnG]

It is uncontitional

[Mikem]

I really dont care if it is constitutional or not, it shoule be abolished.  If you cant do a job that someone is willing to pay you enough for, then I guess you are out of luck.  Why should the employer have to pay some arbitrary amount for your work when it isnt market value?  It isnt the companies fault you cant to more valuable work, it is your fault.  Maybe I am cold-hearted but the way I see it some people just dont have any skills worth paying for.  Making a mimimun wage for nearly worthless work produces inflation and screwes up the market.

[Lunar]

I really dont care if it is constitutional or not, it shoule be abolished.  If you cant do a job that someone is willing to pay you enough for, then I guess you are out of luck.  Why should the employer have to pay some arbitrary amount for your work when it isnt market value?  It isnt the companies fault you cant to more valuable work, it is your fault.  Maybe I am cold-hearted but the way I see it some people just dont have any skills worth paying for.  Making a mimimun wage for nearly worthless work produces inflation and screwes up the market.

My feeling is that capitalism isn't perfect and minimum wage is a fantastic check against one of the more destructive aspects.  There will always be unemployment (more laborers than jobs), thus making it extremely easy for corporations to give only enough money fo sustenance or even a bit below that.

[A18]

I am not a strict constructionist, but I am a constructionist.

How does a broad constructionist go about justifying a federal minimum wage?

[khirkhib]

So Mikem what would you have these "unskilled" laborers do.  What is your viable alternative.  Should they become criminals? Should they sell their organs or their children?  Should they work $100 hour weeks just to stay in debt?  Should they become subsistance farmers and live off the land? Or should they just die? Would you have them die? What would you have them do?  I agree with Lunar the minimum wage goes a long way in checking that destructive aspect of capitalism but it does not even provide enough to keep many people out of poverty.  I don't think that many people on this site truly understand the distopia that they would create if they were in charge of things.  You may not like the idea of the minimum wage, the concept may offend your finer captilistic tastes but we live in a real world where we have real problems that we have to deal with and eliminating the minimum wage does BUBKIS in fixing those (actually it would probably make things a lot worse as far as Standard of Living goes).

[Gabu]

I am curious about minimum wage in foreign countries.  There are people from many countries on this forum.  Can you help me? What kind of minimum wage laws do you have, if any?

In BC, I believe that minimum wage is $8/hour, but we also have a special "training wage" of $6/hour that can be applied at employers' discretion to people who have less than 500 hours of work experience in order to give lesser skilled workers more of a chance of getting hired in a working world where no experience is a drastic setback.

[Bono]

Answering to Bugs' question here in Portugal we have a minimum wage around €380.  It is actualized yearly.

[A18]

Eight people voted yes. Zero people have posted the part of the constitution.

[J-Mann]

Being someone who makes minimum wage and if the laws were not in place would not make nearly as much, I like minimum wage laws, but I also know they should only be prudently raised.  I can't speak for their constitutionality, though.  I just don't know.

[Mikem]

So Mikem what would you have these "unskilled" laborers do.  What is your viable alternative.  Should they become criminals? Should they sell their organs or their children?  Should they work $100 hour weeks just to stay in debt?  Should they become subsistance farmers and live off the land? Or should they just die? Would you have them die? What would you have them do?  I agree with Lunar the minimum wage goes a long way in checking that destructive aspect of capitalism but it does not even provide enough to keep many people out of poverty.  I don't think that many people on this site truly understand the distopia that they would create if they were in charge of things.  You may not like the idea of the minimum wage, the concept may offend your finer captilistic tastes but we live in a real world where we have real problems that we have to deal with and eliminating the minimum wage does BUBKIS in fixing those (actually it would probably make things a lot worse as far as Standard of Living goes).

Personally I dont care what they do, I just dont think they should be overpaid for their work.  I do agree that this would cause a crime problem though.  My main problem is that we should not be trying  to pull people out of poverty by centrally raising their wage.  Some people will always be below the poverty line, that is just the way the economy works.  All that raising the wage higher is going to do is produce faster inflation, so that the real wage will be normalized to near what is was before the hike.  Then you have to raise again, and again, and again. 

[A18]

C'mon you nine people. Where is it?

Here's the document, so you can cut and paste. http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

Articles of Amendment:
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

[A18]

Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Clause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Clause 4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Clause 5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Clause 6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Clause 7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

Clause 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

Clause 10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Clause 13: To provide and maintain a Navy;

Clause 14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, byCession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

[khirkhib]

Alright Phillip.  I can make your legal arguement using the constitution.

Clause 1: The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties imports and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United State; but all duties imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

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A duty, as well as being a tax on imports is also, an act or course of action required of one by position, custom, law or religion.  So this clause can be read that Congress has the power to lay the duty, or create the law, that businesses provide their employees a minimum salery that would promote the general welfare of the US and to do so uniformally thorughout the US.

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Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.

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Commerce is defined in the dictionary as: the exchange or buying and selling of goods, commodities, property, or services.  So it is pretty clear that the US Congress gave themselves the power to regulate the exchange of services in the various states in the country this would give them the power to create a minimum wage for services rendered.
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Clause 5: To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures.

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A measure is a dimensions, quantity, or capacity as ascertained by comparison with a standard.  So the US Congress has the power to regulate the standard  of all wieghts and measure,  they did not limit this clause to matters of weight and distance so we can safely assume that it includes all things that can be measured including the value of a persons work.  The US Congress has the power to establish what the base measure for labor or the minimum wage.

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Now is this what you wanted to hear,  probably not but it looks like it is constitutional to me.  And as for you Mikem that is a completely impractical answer.  We live in a real world, sure you say crime could go up.  So what we should build more prisons,  Look we are trying to live in a nation, you know, United We Stand, mabye we should try to have a functioning country.

[A18]

A duty is a tax charged by a government, especially on imports.

Read that second clause again: to regulate commerce among the several States. Not within.

The power to regulate the value of currency is not the power to regulate the value of work.

[khirkhib]

Yeah, Philip - you can interpret the constitution your way to.  But since duty is also noun a moral and legal oblgation, since among is also defined as noun in or through the midst of : surrounded by   and Clause 5 clearly says that they have the power to fix the standard of measures and measure is defined as an adequate or due portion you can easily interpret these clauses as allowing the US congress to create a minimum wage.  Don't trust me go check the dictionary.  http://www.m-w.com .  Sure, your interpretations of the words probably give the government additional powers in relationship to international trade, and I'm not saying that the US constitutional made international trade unconstitional, I'm just saying that it also lays the ground for creating a minimum wage.

Now for whatever reason you may not like minimum wage, maybe you think it is bad for the economy.  Maybe you think that people that earn minimum wage are stupid and smelly and don't deserve the tupence that minimum wage gives them but that is more of a value statement.  Just like I can have a value statement like anybody who would dodge the draft, that is not a pacisfist, in a world war II situation is a complete a-hole and shouldn't really have any say at all in what the government can and cannot do.