Is Amnesty International an "absurd" group of American Haters?

[The Duke]

Given that the basis of their report is the testimony of detained terrorists (even Amnesty does not dispute this fact to my knowledge) I cannot accept at face value the idea that torture at Gitmo is proven.  Far from it, Gitmo has actually been very open about what the standards are for prisoner treatment and has taken disciplinary action against MPs and interrogators who violate these rules.

[The Duke]

opebo,

You say an absence of abuse reports only exist where the media is present.  This makes your calim self justifying, like, I dare to say it, when someone says God exists because you can't prove he doesn't.  If you only charge a tree falls when no one is around to hear it, you can't expect anyone to take you seriously.

Pym Fortun,

The difference with conservatives who believed the people released from Soviet Gulags is that those people were not terrorists.  As I said before, even Amnesty International does not dispute the charges against these people.  They are universally recognized as terrorists.  However, those released from the Gulags who recieved media attention were authors and activists.  There is a huge difference in their credibility.

[The Duke]

Let me restate that Amnesty does not even question the fact that these people are terrorists.  Yet they publish this report based solely on the testimony of these terrorists!  Pym Fortyn questioned whether they are in fact terrorists, I'd like to know on what grounds he has placed himself to the left of even Amnesty International.

As for Palefire, I have no reason to accept Amnesty's recommendations for treatment at Gitmo, the current rules are quite stringent enough.  These men do not recieve legal counsel because the law does not apply to them.  Under what jurisdicition would they be arraigned anyway?  You say that this is a crossfire of words, yet its not a simple he said she said.  Its the word of soldiers, Senators, and the President of the United States against the word of acknowledged terrorists.  Maybe you believe the word of Richard Myers, Chairman of the JCS is no better than the word of a bin Laden disciple, but you won't find many who agree with you on that.

No more independent investigations.  Every time we have an investigation, the far left demands another because the first one didn't get the findings the far left wanted.  They clamored for a 9/11 Commission, and when it showed no fault by the Administration and a tie between iraq and Al Qaeda, they suddenly forgot all about it.  They demanded an independent commission on Abu Ghraib.  The Schlessinger Commission was created, and found no evidence that the men and women who abused prisoners had been ordered to do so and that they were acting on their own, but this did not fit into the left's Rumsfeld hatred, so they dropped the whole idea and let the actual findings slip into oblivion.  Now they want a new Commission, presumably because the first independent commission did not return with the findings the far left wanted.

And please stop pretending to be an independent.

[The Duke]

Bono,

I will repeat this again, since apparently people didn't see it the first six times.  Amnesty International, and for that matter no independent organization, believes the detainees at Gitmo are innocent of the charge of being a terrorist.  I repeat, no one, not even Amnesty, has challenged the status of the enemy combatants there.

Palefire,

Why should the Red Cross be given access?  Your argument rests on this idea, but you still haven't established its certitude.  It's simply an assumption you make without questioning it first.

There hasn't been an independent investigation into whether someone spit in my tacos last night at Chilis.  Is there a need for one simply because one hasn't happened?  Of course not, as there is no reason to think that this happened.

I have seem a pattern of leftist posts from you on these boards.  I have not seen any conservative positions or even centrist positions.  Many leftists wish to be seen as independents, as do many conservatives.  They think it gives more weight to their views to pretend not to be partisan.  No one buys it.

[The Duke]

Well said Opebo. I'm proud of you and a little surprised; excellent.

Mr. Ford - I'm glad you follow my posts, but it would appear that you are not doing it very well. I'm a very socially liberal kind of guy, but you are mistaking strong beliefs for something other than what it is. Strong beliefs do not equal partisanship. As I see it partisanship is just an excuse for failing to think. If you could get past the stupid us vs. them mentality maybe you could get down to talking about the heart of the issues. If you did that I’m sure you would be quite an interesting person to converse with. Of all the fine young Republicans posting on this site, that I have encountered, you seem the brightest - and as such I hope you can get past some of that foolishness.

A few moments ago, I made a post in jfern's new thread that probably disabuses everyone of any notion that I'm a partisan.  I appreciate the comments about my intelligence, but still think you should have a red avatar.

I will repeat this again, since apparently people didn't see it the first six times.  Amnesty International, and for that matter no independent organization, believes the detainees at Gitmo are innocent of the charge of being a terrorist.  I repeat, no one, not even Amnesty, has challenged the status of the enemy combatants there.

The charge of 'being a terrorist' has never been made, as there is no court. It is also a misrepresentation or double standard, as both sides are either soldiers or terrorists.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If no third party is given access, there is nothing whatever to prevent torture. It is reasonable to presume that where there is secrecy, there is abuse. Why not let us monitor? Transparency is essentially to any sort of legal rights or democratic government.

We're back to your same old argument.  You will need some evidencethat there is torture before you expect people to believe you.  When you say that any place where there is no evidence of torture, the lack of evidence is itself evidence is not very serious.

[The Duke]

One other correction, some have said the Red Cross has not been allowed in.  They in fact have been allowed in many times to observe what is going on.

[The Duke]

Amnesty International's current front page links to news articles that criticize the following countries:

Two criticisms:
China

One criticism:
Afghanistan
Lebanon
European Union
Mexico
Nigeria
Russia
United Kingdom
United States
Zimbabwe

More critical of the United States than of Sudan, I take it.  Impressive.

[The Duke]

Amnesty International's current front page links to news articles that criticize the following countries:

Two criticisms:
China

One criticism:
Afghanistan
Lebanon
European Union
Mexico
Nigeria
Russia
United Kingdom
United States
Zimbabwe

More critical of the United States than of Sudan, I take it.  Impressive.

These are news stories.  So if Sudan hasn't don't something lately, it's not surprising.

There is an ONGOING genocide in Sudan right now.