If another great depression happened within in this decade.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The fascist state under Barack Obama will expand for a time, but eventually collapse and give way to freedom. Things will get worse, but then they will get better.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

And the Tea Partiers aren't fascist.

I don't use the word lightly....but they're certainly the closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time.

Sorry, then you have no clue what fascism is.

Barack Obama and the current U.S. regime is the "closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time."

Not ordinary people protesting out-of-control deficit spending.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

And the Tea Partiers aren't fascist.

I don't use the word lightly....but they're certainly the closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time.

Sorry, then you have no clue what fascism is.

Barack Obama and the current U.S. regime is the "closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time."

Not ordinary people protesting out-of-control deficit spending.

lol

Yeah, I'm glad you've looked back and realized you can laugh at yourself now; that was a pretty LOLworthy comment on your part.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Fascism is right-wing, correct?

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government...these are planks right out of Mussolini!!!111

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

And the Tea Partiers aren't fascist.

I don't use the word lightly....but they're certainly the closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time.

Sorry, then you have no clue what fascism is.

Barack Obama and the current U.S. regime is the "closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time."
Not ordinary people protesting out-of-control deficit spending.

Both of you are wrong.

Neither the Tea Party movement nor Obama are anything close to fascist, and I'd like Franzl and Libertas to please explain how the Tea Partiers and Obama are, respectively.

The Obama regime's entire economic philosophy is rooted in fascism, i.e., private ownership, public control. We have ongoing wars and insane military spending, we have nationalized corporations, we have an expanding leviathan state. Obama rose to power on an astroturf-generated cult of personality funded by the Wall Street banks, which coincidentally are also corporations now attached closely to the fascist regime in Washington.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Some of the economy may be controlled by the government, but it's nowhere close to a level of overall fascism.

Under the Bush and Obama administrations, we have been accelerating toward that point very quickly. The heavy hand of government is taking grasp of industry after industry, from finance to automotive to healthcare.


We are also fast approaching the point at which half of our GDP will be government spending.

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Once again, the rapid trend toward authoritarianism we have seen over the past few years should be plenty of cause for concern even if you don't believe we are currently living under authoritarianism.

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Of course he is. Fascism worships the state as the nation, not the people.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Fascism worships the state as the nation, not the people.

Hardly. It's closer to the other way round, though more complicated than that. One People, One Will, One Leader and all that (haha!) jazz. Totalitarianism is a myth created by the sort of people that I'd normally assume you'd hate.

A fascist would consider the people to belong to the state.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Fascism worships the state as the nation, not the people.

Hardly. It's closer to the other way round, though more complicated than that. One People, One Will, One Leader and all that (haha!) jazz. Totalitarianism is a myth created by the sort of people that I'd normally assume you'd hate.

A fascist would consider the people to belong to the state.

But that's not nationalism.

It's nationalism in the sense employed by Mussolini and Obama. Mussolini didn't really care about the Italian people any more than Obama cares about the American people. They care merely about exploiting nationalism to serve the state.

You're trying to use this abstract idea to distract from the fact that in terms of real policies, Obama's decidedly lean toward fascism.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Fascism worships the state as the nation, not the people.

Hardly. It's closer to the other way round, though more complicated than that. One People, One Will, One Leader and all that (haha!) jazz. Totalitarianism is a myth created by the sort of people that I'd normally assume you'd hate.

A fascist would consider the people to belong to the state.

But that's not nationalism.

It's nationalism in the sense employed by Mussolini and Obama. Mussolini didn't really care about the Italian people any more than Obama cares about the American people. They care merely about exploiting nationalism to serve the state.

You're trying to use this abstract idea to distract from the fact that in terms of real policies, Obama's decidedly lean toward fascism.

No - I'm not.  Because Obama isn't exploiting nationalism.  And that's part of what I'm using to prove that you're wrong here.

Of course he is. He always has, just like his predecessors have done.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/024898.html

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But again, you're trying to nitpick over this abstract idea rather than admit that the core of Obama's actual policies fit with fascism.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

He wanted to unite America.  That's not nationalism - that's trying to get as many votes as you can in an election.

Whether or not I'm nitpicking, Obama is not overall a fascist.  He may adhere to some of the tenets of fascims, but he is nowhere close to being an all-out fascist.

Uh, no, he definitely is a fascist, even if your claims about him lacking 'nationalism' were true. The core of fascism is its economic and social policies, not the propaganda it uses.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

He wanted to unite America.  That's not nationalism - that's trying to get as many votes as you can in an election.

Whether or not I'm nitpicking, Obama is not overall a fascist.  He may adhere to some of the tenets of fascims, but he is nowhere close to being an all-out fascist.

Uh, no, he definitely is a fascist, even if your claims about him lacking 'nationalism' were true. The core of fascism is its economic and social policies, not the propaganda it uses.

You've only mentioned economic policies.  What social policies of his are fascist?

Under Obama, the U.S. government is corporatizing healthcare even further, for example.

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Not really. Did you see my earlier post on the subject?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

And the Tea Partiers aren't fascist.

I don't use the word lightly....but they're certainly the closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time.

Sorry, then you have no clue what fascism is.

Barack Obama and the current U.S. regime is the "closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time."

Not ordinary people protesting out-of-control deficit spending.

So the deficit spending that occured before January 20, 2009 was completely fine?

Hmm, you must have accidentally quoted the wrong person; I don't recall saying that.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The one where you showed that the % of government spending as part of GDP?  Yeah - it was under 45%, so not even half of the economy - in a fascist economy that'd be much higher.

Uh, Inks, do you believe in a free market system? If so, I have a hard time believing that you aren't alarmed that anything even close to half of the entire U.S. economy is now government spending.

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A fascist would oppose independent unions that promoted some Marxian ideology, but not unions that are essentially corporate outgrowths of the state as they are in the U.S. Unions actually play a strong role in fascistic national syndicalist ideology. There's certainly no conflict between corporatist unions and fascism.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I am alarmed, but it hasn't crossed to a point of fascism.

Once again, look at the trends, not the point at which we are right now.

And btw, fascism didn't take over 100% of the economy in the countries in which it was practiced either. There was 'capitalism', just a heavily burdened illusory 'capitalism'- like we have today.
 

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Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

This discussion is exactly what I would expect from someone with such a pitiful understanding of history and simpleminded logic as Libertas has been displaying here. Much longer posts could be made about this than what this one will be, but I would wager the reason no one, such as Al, has been bothered to respond in a lengthy manner to Libertas is because, everytime it's tried in the past, Libertas will either ignore most of what you said or just not respond again.

I will remark on my favorite thing about reading this inane discussion: Libertas' skill at broadly declaring any action fascistic. I only wish things were so black and white. Intent and purpose matter far more than the action itself. Government control of something is not inherently fascist. Authoritarianism is authoritarianism and how that authoritarianism is used defines the ideology harnessing it.

Authoritarianism, government action, centralization, is not a matter of left and right. But Libertas has tried to boil down this simple facts of society down into left/right freedom/fascist ways that are simply mind blowing in how he actually believes in his own BS.

For example: If a government takes action to break up strikes, intimidate unions, and side with business leaders, for the purpose of displaying an anti-organized labor attitude, that would be far more an inherently right-wing phenomenon than a left wing one. Conversely, a government taking action to protect strikers and encourage union growth for the sake of bolstering organized labor, that would be an inherently more left-wing phenomenon than a right-wing one.

Libertas, however, does not see any deeper than the surface, because he simply declares the act of government, whether it be in defense of or against the subject, fascist in itself. This is why his entire presence in this thread is a joke.

Defining fascism, or anything political for that matter, is not easy. And I yield to Al for what fascism is and isn't, because I'm far less educated on the matter than he is, but I do know that intent matters. The purpose of the state's action, not the action itself, defines what something is.

Amazing how you get away with baseless attacks on my intelligence while you whine to the mods if I were to say the same things back to you actually rooted in the cold hard facts.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

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Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

Uh yeah, how the hell does CBS News know how to poll a loose coalition they've deemed to be "Tea Partiers"? Only 28% of the people they polled have a favorable view of Ron Paul? People who like Bush but dislike Paul are neocons, not tea partiers.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

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Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

That was my point - that many labor unions have become supportive of the Democrat Party, and that that goes contrary to fascism.  You're using your assumption that the Obama administration is fascist to prove your claim that the labor unions are connected to a fascist government to prove that the Obama administration is a fascist administration.

Again, you seem to be working under the impression that fascist parties are inherently anti-union. That is false. Corporatist unions formed the basis upon which fascists like Mussolini structured their economies.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

Uh yeah, how the hell does CBS News know how to poll a loose coalition they've deemed to be "Tea Partiers"? Only 28% of the people they polled have a favorable view of Ron Paul? People who like Bush but dislike Paul are neocons, not tea partiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Uh yeah, being a tea partier is not genetic and inherent like being a Scotsman.

If someone supports war but calls himself a pacifist, would you respond the same way if someone else said he was not a true pacifist?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

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Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

That was my point - that many labor unions have become supportive of the Democrat Party, and that that goes contrary to fascism.  You're using your assumption that the Obama administration is fascist to prove your claim that the labor unions are connected to a fascist government to prove that the Obama administration is a fascist administration.

Again, you seem to be working under the impression that fascist parties are inherently anti-union. That is false. Corporatist unions formed the basis upon which fascists like Mussolini structured their economies.

Because labor unions go against the principles of how a fascist economy works.

Not necessarily. Obviously a union that agitated for anarcho-syndicalism or a similar ideology would have been an enemy of the fascist state. But unions themselves are not inherently anti-fascist. In fact, in some cases, they are an essential component.

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Corporatism is based on the principle of promoting cooperation between labor and the capitalist class with state intervention. A union would be structured to accomplish this goal.

Look at the situation with the auto worker unions. GM has not been managed by free market principles, but by the demands of the unions and their close allies in the government. They are forced into cooperation by the force of the state, for the good of the state. In fact, if you recall, one of the reasons given for the auto bailouts was that we would need them for the sake of national defense...

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Unions functioning with the purpose that they were originally intended are, however.

Not all unions exist for the same purpose.

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I don't disagree, but that's a tangential point to the topic. Once again, it seems like you just don't want admit any agreement between us...

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Unions functioning with the purpose that they were originally intended are, however.

Not all unions exist for the same purpose.

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I don't disagree, but that's a tangential point to the topic. Once again, it seems like you just don't want admit any agreement between us...

No - and this is what you're missing... you have some valid points to your argument.  But you take those valid points too far and interpret them as something that they are not.
The UAW is not a standard example of a union operating in America.

Well prove me wrong then...I'm listening.


But the situation seems to me to be the opposite. You're trying to find little exceptions here and there to disprove the fact that the core of Obama's policies are fascistic.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I have all throughout this thread.

Obama is missing major tenets of fascism.  To summarize:

1. He is not a nationalist (at least not a nationalist by definition that fits with fascist nationalism).
2. While he has increased government intervention into the economy, he has not done so to a level that a genuinely fascist government would.

Both of these issues have been dealt with repeatedly...

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There are none. Hitlerism is not synonymous with fascism.

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Um, what? Be specific.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

You mean Nazism?  And yes, most people agree that one of the tenets of fascism is tied to racism/ethnicism.

Except it isn't. Mussolini only implemented racial laws (and dumped his Jewish mistress) after getting involved with Hitler and the latter's personal issues. Other fascist states never had such racial or ethnic discrimination.

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Those aren't fundamental to fascism. Nazi Germany was big on abortion, as long as it was for non-Aryans.

The fundamental economic and social policies that I mentioned earlier are, as is the philosophy on government shared by Obama, Mussolini, and Hitler.