If another great depression happened within in this decade.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

And Marokai, that's what I've been trying to get at.  That's why my "nitpicking" is key - there are aspects of fascism that are part of many political ideologies.  The points I'm "nitpicking" are the tenets of fascism that Obama lacks that changes his actions from fascist to simply big government, something that, in and of itself, is not fascist.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

This discussion is exactly what I would expect from someone with such a pitiful understanding of history and simpleminded logic as Libertas has been displaying here. Much longer posts could be made about this than what this one will be, but I would wager the reason no one, such as Al, has been bothered to respond in a lengthy manner to Libertas is because, everytime it's tried in the past, Libertas will either ignore most of what you said or just not respond again.

I will remark on my favorite thing about reading this inane discussion: Libertas' skill at broadly declaring any action fascistic. I only wish things were so black and white. Intent and purpose matter far more than the action itself. Government control of something is not inherently fascist. Authoritarianism is authoritarianism and how that authoritarianism is used defines the ideology harnessing it.

Authoritarianism, government action, centralization, is not a matter of left and right. But Libertas has tried to boil down this simple facts of society down into left/right freedom/fascist ways that are simply mind blowing in how he actually believes in his own BS.

For example: If a government takes action to break up strikes, intimidate unions, and side with business leaders, for the purpose of displaying an anti-organized labor attitude, that would be far more an inherently right-wing phenomenon than a left wing one. Conversely, a government taking action to protect strikers and encourage union growth for the sake of bolstering organized labor, that would be an inherently more left-wing phenomenon than a right-wing one.

Libertas, however, does not see any deeper than the surface, because he simply declares the act of government, whether it be in defense of or against the subject, fascist in itself. This is why his entire presence in this thread is a joke.

Defining fascism, or anything political for that matter, is not easy. And I yield to Al for what fascism is and isn't, because I'm far less educated on the matter than he is, but I do know that intent matters. The purpose of the state's action, not the action itself, defines what something is.

Amazing how you get away with baseless attacks on my intelligence while you whine to the mods if I were to say the same things back to you actually rooted in the cold hard facts.

[Sewer]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

That was my point - that many labor unions have become supportive of the Democrat Party, and that that goes contrary to fascism.  You're using your assumption that the Obama administration is fascist to prove your claim that the labor unions are connected to a fascist government to prove that the Obama administration is a fascist administration.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

Uh yeah, how the hell does CBS News know how to poll a loose coalition they've deemed to be "Tea Partiers"? Only 28% of the people they polled have a favorable view of Ron Paul? People who like Bush but dislike Paul are neocons, not tea partiers.

[Marokai Backbeat]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government,

What? That makes no sense. Unions have never been closely associated with the government in this country, enough for it to matter in any way at least, and the government has routinely limited the power of unions over the last 65 years since the waning New Deal days.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

They support Democrats and are supported by Democrats because they have mutual interests economically and because Democrats have less of a tendency to completely bust unions. If they were closely associated with the government or some such nonsense, you'd see more pro-union legislation than the, uh, none, since Obama became President.

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What the hell is a "corporatist union" anyway? The term doesn't even make sense. "National union" or something would be, while still absurd, more appropriate, since the very existence of a union is anti-business to some degree.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

Uh yeah, how the hell does CBS News know how to poll a loose coalition they've deemed to be "Tea Partiers"? Only 28% of the people they polled have a favorable view of Ron Paul? People who like Bush but dislike Paul are neocons, not tea partiers.

Considering that there's not really a set definition of Tea Partier, it's not that simple; however, I would agree that a generic Tea Partier should be a fan of Ron Paul.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

That was my point - that many labor unions have become supportive of the Democrat Party, and that that goes contrary to fascism.  You're using your assumption that the Obama administration is fascist to prove your claim that the labor unions are connected to a fascist government to prove that the Obama administration is a fascist administration.

Again, you seem to be working under the impression that fascist parties are inherently anti-union. That is false. Corporatist unions formed the basis upon which fascists like Mussolini structured their economies.

[Sewer]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

Uh yeah, how the hell does CBS News know how to poll a loose coalition they've deemed to be "Tea Partiers"? Only 28% of the people they polled have a favorable view of Ron Paul? People who like Bush but dislike Paul are neocons, not tea partiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Marokai Backbeat]

It's also worth pointing out to Libertas that unions, having gotten very little of what they want, have also been very vocal in criticizing the White House, have been criticized themselves very recently by people in the Administration, and actively try (and many times fail) to take down Democratic candidates with ones more favorable to their cause.

So can someone please explain to me how the relationship between the Democrats and Unions is fascist, or even barely a relationship at all?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

Uh yeah, how the hell does CBS News know how to poll a loose coalition they've deemed to be "Tea Partiers"? Only 28% of the people they polled have a favorable view of Ron Paul? People who like Bush but dislike Paul are neocons, not tea partiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Uh yeah, being a tea partier is not genetic and inherent like being a Scotsman.

If someone supports war but calls himself a pacifist, would you respond the same way if someone else said he was not a true pacifist?

[Sewer]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

Uh yeah, how the hell does CBS News know how to poll a loose coalition they've deemed to be "Tea Partiers"? Only 28% of the people they polled have a favorable view of Ron Paul? People who like Bush but dislike Paul are neocons, not tea partiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Uh yeah, being a tea partier is not genetic and inherent like being a Scotsman.

If someone supports war but calls himself a pacifist, would you respond the same way if someone else said he was not a true pacifist?

Pacifist has a set definition.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

That was my point - that many labor unions have become supportive of the Democrat Party, and that that goes contrary to fascism.  You're using your assumption that the Obama administration is fascist to prove your claim that the labor unions are connected to a fascist government to prove that the Obama administration is a fascist administration.

Again, you seem to be working under the impression that fascist parties are inherently anti-union. That is false. Corporatist unions formed the basis upon which fascists like Mussolini structured their economies.

Because labor unions go against the principles of how a fascist economy works.

And what exactly do you mean by "corporatist union"?

[Associate Justice PiT]

What the hell is a "corporatist union" anyway? The term doesn't even make sense. "National union" or something would be, while still absurd, more appropriate, since the very existence of a union is anti-business to some degree.

     Fascism is also rather anti-business. If I recall correctly, fascists described their plan for business as "national corporatism". Point is, there is some precedent for calling the allies of fascism corporatists, even if it is as much of an abuse of the term as calling them socialists is.

[Sewer]

In fascism business, labor and government are one.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

That was my point - that many labor unions have become supportive of the Democrat Party, and that that goes contrary to fascism.  You're using your assumption that the Obama administration is fascist to prove your claim that the labor unions are connected to a fascist government to prove that the Obama administration is a fascist administration.

Again, you seem to be working under the impression that fascist parties are inherently anti-union. That is false. Corporatist unions formed the basis upon which fascists like Mussolini structured their economies.

Because labor unions go against the principles of how a fascist economy works.

Not necessarily. Obviously a union that agitated for anarcho-syndicalism or a similar ideology would have been an enemy of the fascist state. But unions themselves are not inherently anti-fascist. In fact, in some cases, they are an essential component.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Corporatism is based on the principle of promoting cooperation between labor and the capitalist class with state intervention. A union would be structured to accomplish this goal.

Look at the situation with the auto worker unions. GM has not been managed by free market principles, but by the demands of the unions and their close allies in the government. They are forced into cooperation by the force of the state, for the good of the state. In fact, if you recall, one of the reasons given for the auto bailouts was that we would need them for the sake of national defense...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Not necessarily. Obviously a union that agitated for anarcho-syndicalism or a similar ideology would have been an enemy of the fascist state. But unions themselves are not inherently anti-fascist. In fact, in some cases, they are an essential component.

Unions functioning with the purpose that they were originally intended are, however.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Corporatism is based on the principle of promoting cooperation between labor and the capitalist class with state intervention. A union would be structured to accomplish this goal.

Look at the situation with the auto worker unions. GM has not been managed by free market principles, but by the demands of the unions and their close allies in the government. They are forced into cooperation by the force of the state, for the good of the state. In fact, if you recall, one of the reasons given for the auto bailouts was that we would need them for the sake of national defense...
[/quote]

The UAW is a clear example of a union who has lost its way in truly protecting the interests of the worker, though.  But that's more of an effect of greed rather than government intrusion into the economy.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Unions functioning with the purpose that they were originally intended are, however.

Not all unions exist for the same purpose.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't disagree, but that's a tangential point to the topic. Once again, it seems like you just don't want admit any agreement between us...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Unions functioning with the purpose that they were originally intended are, however.

Not all unions exist for the same purpose.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't disagree, but that's a tangential point to the topic. Once again, it seems like you just don't want admit any agreement between us...

No - and this is what you're missing... you have some valid points to your argument.  But you take those valid points too far and interpret them as something that they are not.
The UAW is not a standard example of a union operating in America.

[Derek]

I would blame Obama door to door until he lost the election if this happened. I'd figure out how to live off the land and hunt for food. What will you do? There's more to life than money. Sure, you may not have money as my grandparents didn't growing up in the depression. But, I'll tell you what, they had everything but money. Maybe a depression is what we need. It would take away the image of the spoiled teenager leaning up against the Lexus that his dad bought for him and replace it with a kid who comes home early from school to help his dad on the family farm. What a reality check a depression would be. If this gets deleted then we'll know who is and isn't all about money.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I would blame Obama door to door until he lost the election if this happened.

It's overly simplifying it to blame it on one person.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That I'll agree with though.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Unions functioning with the purpose that they were originally intended are, however.

Not all unions exist for the same purpose.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't disagree, but that's a tangential point to the topic. Once again, it seems like you just don't want admit any agreement between us...

No - and this is what you're missing... you have some valid points to your argument.  But you take those valid points too far and interpret them as something that they are not.
The UAW is not a standard example of a union operating in America.

Well prove me wrong then...I'm listening.


But the situation seems to me to be the opposite. You're trying to find little exceptions here and there to disprove the fact that the core of Obama's policies are fascistic.

[Derek]

Greed causes a depression but it's not corporate greed alone which has been beaten into the heads of our youth since 1933. We have newly married couples expecting a loan for their new house. There are high school graduates asking "where is my loan?" as if they expect someone with more money to pay for it. This partly comes from the fact that we create the image in our kids that if they don't make it into college at the ripe old age of 18 they won't be successful. There's corporate America which donates absurd amounts of cash to candidates in exchange for tax breaks, looking the other way, and getting away with cooking their books. Lower income individuals have it so easy to get a loan these days that even if they have no intention of ever paying it back, they'll get it and it will create debt. Our politicians have no checks and balances for themselves in terms of spending. They prance around OUR country promising welfare checks, food stamps, and unemployment benefits in exchange for votes. They just borrow if we don't have the money. What's their way of paying things back? That's right taking out another loan to pay off interest on another loan. How many  times have you been at a department store and if someone doesn't have cash you hear "I'll use my credit card." Hell I've done it. Who keeps track of how much gas, oil, electric they use? I'm not perfect so don't get me wrong but our resources aren't permanent. Not corporate greed alone, but GREED IN GENERAL will cause a depression in society. The same can be said that greed in an individual can lead to that individual never being satisfied and therefore in a depressed state of mind.