COVID-19 Megathread 5: The Trumps catch COVID-19

[Badger]

It's funny how there is a lot of hate for DeSantis and lots of love for Whitmer, although Florida has less cases and deaths than Michigan even though it has more than double the population of the Wolverine State.

Death counts matter, but they still don't account for the fact that DeSantis is an idiot and Whitmer is not.

Correlation equals causation. Democratic governors cause death.

If we divide the 50 states and DC into tertiles based on deaths per million:

Top 3rd D: (12) NY, NJ, NJ, CT, LA, MI, DC, RI, IL, PA, CO, DE, WA
Top 3rd R: (5) MA, IN, GA, MS, MD

Mid 3rd D: (9) NV, VA, KY, WI, NM, MN, CA, KS, ME
Mid 3rd R: ( VT, OH, OK, FL, MO, NH, AL, AZ

Bottom 3rd D: (4) NC, OR, MT, HI
Bottom 3rd R: (13) IA, SC, ID, NE, TN, TX, ND, WV, AR, UT, AK, WY, SD

Interesting that you didn't even attempt to reply to the responses to your prior post, which of course took your convoluted logic and completely blew it out of the water.

Self quoting: The last resort of scoundrels.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/JesseFFerguson/status/1254886896376872960?s=20

If Obama or Hillary did this, Chapter 3497

[Badger]

Morning, y'all!

Went to the doctor yesterday and have been given a clean bill of health! Also volunteered to have some blood drawn that Penn will use for antibody research.  

That's beyond awesome news, PQG!

How's our other Atlas Covid-19 Patient, Libertarian Republican?

[Badger]

This is the late Christopher Reeve's son. He's been an ABC reporter for at least the past few years. However, this isn't the first time that I've seen something like this happening. One of the Five co-hosts on Fox News, Jesse Waters, has been anchoring from home, and was also photographed wearing a suit but not pants. You can't really bash people for not wanting to fully dress up if they aren't going into the studio; everyone makes mistakes.

lolol it's funny. You don't have to be serious all the time...

But if you want a super serious take, then there really isn't an excuse. If you're going on national TV, the least you could do is wear some sort of pants. Who would base this decision on the idea that they "know" the camera will only capture just above their waist? How lazy are these people? Why would you even risk it? I wouldn't even consider the idea. God forbid I think I can get away with it, only to become the butt of a joke across the internet and late night talk shows.

I have an online court hearing in less than half an hour. I'm currently wearing my Pittsburgh Penguins pajama pants and a pens sweatshirt, plus flip-flops. I haven't gotten around to putting socks on yet. However, I'm going to head upstairs in a minute and get changed into a shirt and tie, and yes even dress pants. Even if I only wind up wearing them for less than an hour for this relatively short hearing.

My point is, this is what folks like Reeve get paid the big bucks for. If you're going to appear on national TV, at least put some pants on. Take them off after your segment, but just make that half-assed effort at least.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/1255184301458669571

I do not see how the Executive Branch can unilaterally immunize these companies from liability.  Would one of our resident lawyers comment?

Frick if I know. Perhaps it is limiting liability for violation of FDA or other food and health/safety regulations enforced by the Department of Agriculture or Department of Commerce. Even those regulations would largely require proper administrative rule finding and the like,.

In all seriousness, the other alternative explanation is this is the equivalent of trump waving a stick he claims is a magic wand and proclaiming himself King of the Moon. He has been known issues such Fantasyland unenforceable orders multiple times in the past, being egged on by a combination of ever present sycophants and unitary executive theorists In The West Wing.

[Badger]

Mask orders continue to spread across the country. Andy Beshear is now mandating all Kentuckians to wear masks in public by May 11: https://www.wkyt.com/content/news/WATCH-LIVE-Gov-Beshears-daily-COVID-19-update-569985941.html. Apparently, the general public will not be cited if they don't wear them, but they will be "asked" to put them on, and it will be mandatory for essential employees in businesses. The city of Birmingham, Alabama, is also making masks mandatory in public: https://www.al.com/news/2020/04/birmingham-eyes-requiring-masks-in-public.html. And in Colorado, Aspen is also requiring masks: https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/04/28/face-masks-mandatory-in-aspen/. Both Birmingham and Aspen will fine residents if they don't wear masks. Aspen is the first place in my home state that I am aware of that is making it mandatory.

How long do these mandatory masks orders last for I've seen as soon as they can last a year

Honestly why would this be a big deal? Mandatory masks in public spaces are much less intrusive than various closure/lockdown/stay-at-home rules.

Because you're telling people what to do.

My own views aside, people -- especially Americans -- get very touchy about being told what to do (or when they sense that they're being told what to do).

This is certainly true. For example, as I'm sure you're aware, this has arisen in your home state of Texas. Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo issued an order last week mandating that all residents there wear masks in public, or face a $1,000 fine for not doing so. Governor Abbott, however, in issuing his executive order today outlining Texas's gradual reopening process, explicitly overruled the fine requirement, stating that local jurisdictions in Texas cannot fine or penalize people who don't want to wear masks. In addition to Harris County, Bexar, Travis, and Dallas Counties, and the city of Laredo had also issued mandatory mask orders. Any penalties from those orders are overridden as well.

I've also seen a number of articles discussing the traditional hostility in this country to wearing masks, which have typically been associated with government intrusiveness and with criminality (i.e. black inner-city "thugs", the Ku Klux Klan). Nevertheless, it seems like the majority of Americans have accepted it, and there is of course the example of the Spanish Flu from a century ago, when mask-wearing became common in many cities.

Ah, part of the continuing Republican Saga of believing local government rules best, until they start doing things we don't like, then federalism and Community control be damned.

[Badger]

There was an increase in testing which coincided with the increase in detected cases.

One might as easily conclude that shoving a probe up one's nostril towards the crown of the head stimulates the corona gland causing release of coronavirus.

Democrats likely see imposition of masks as controlling the populace, a mark of submission. Republicans are more concerned about liberty and economic freedom.

now why you gotta come on to the Atlas Forum COVID-19 megathread, where the top medical minds on the internet have gathered, and post stupid sh*t?

That is some seriously stupid to the point of offencive stuff. No Jimrtex, Democrats support wearing masks because we don't want the contagion to spread, and have a modicum of consideration for others unlike delusionists like yourself.

It really pisses me off that people like me are worried about the health and safety of not only our own family and friends, but even those of your own. And you write us off as essentially not even being part of the same Society and country with some black helicopter type language.

Go back to deconstructing redistricting Maps, because you are neither good at, nor worthy of respect in, this discussion.

I've resolved try to quit responding to various cement heads whose opinions will never change despite facts and logic, but that really pissed me off.

[Badger]

Kushner calls US coronavirus response a "great success story."

President Donald Trump's senior adviser and son-in-law, Jared Kushner, praised the administration's response to the coronavirus pandemic as a "great success story" on Wednesday -- less than a day after the number of confirmed coronavirus cases in the United States topped 1 million.

Kushner painted a rosy picture for "Fox and Friends" Wednesday morning, saying that "the federal government rose to the challenge and this is a great success story and I think that that's really what needs to be told."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/29/politics/jared-kushner-coronavirus-success-story/index.html

And if you watch Fox and Friends, you're exactly the type of bubble dweller who'd believe this.

[Badger]

The real number of COVID deaths in the US is probably much higher already, 130.000 to 150.000 - if you factor in people dying at home.

Those people are not showing up in the daily hospital and nursing home statistics.

Not likely.

Doctors are complaining  in hospitals of deaths due to other causes being reported as Corona-virus, that is every mortality regardless when co-morbidity is the major cause.

There are not 90,000 corpses sitting in homes around the USA......I hope.

Based on my numerical observations, Germany and the US datasets are reasonably clean.

Autopsies and chemistry results are not being conducted on tens of thousands of unquestionably covid-19 cause deaths. Infinitely more likely to depress the actual results then these supposed anecdotal issues of some doctors somewhere supposedly saying covid-19 are being over reported.

[Badger]

On a different note, here is some xkcd.

Hopefully I haven't been playing too much armchair epi on here.  Hell, I've been extremely hesitant and unwilling to give even common-sense medical advice. 

To me the point of the comic is that some armchairing is not a bad thing. In fact, it's completely human that we try to think and reason about this even if we're not experts... As long as we understand that we know less than people who've studied this their whole lives and probably shouldn't confidently promote the first thing that pops into our heads as THE SOLUTION TO EVERYTHING.

Slightly belated welcome, and you should post much more often.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1256202305680158720

No, these are not "good" people, they are domestic terrorists and should be treated as such.

ok Rambo

How anyone can think anything other than that about thugs representing a small minority brandishing firearms overlooking an elected representative body in a blatant attempt to intimidate them in contravention of the democratic process, is completely Beyond ration.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1256202305680158720

No, these are not "good" people, they are domestic terrorists and should be treated as such.

ok Rambo

How anyone can think anything other than that about thugs representing a small minority brandishing firearms overlooking an elected representative body in a blatant attempt to intimidate them in contravention of the democratic process, is completely Beyond ration.

"Brandishing" a firearm is a crime. They would have immediately arrested them if they had an excuse such as that. Legally carrying a firearm is not brandishing. If you are sooo scared of firearm that even seeing one triggers you, stay out of public. Especially now bandying around the word "terrorist" is excessive hyperbole and not conducive to intelligent discussion. Its a lazy attempt to shutdown differing views and evoke anger at the "other". It is disgusting and I'd report it if itd do any good. Ive had much less purposefully inflammatory comments infracted for "excessive hyperbole" or "hatefulness".

Oh please. Quit being such an apologist for thugs. Oh goodie! They didn't actually cock and point their guns at legislate arguing in favor of keeping the shut down! Nothing to see here! Totally business-as-usual compatible with the open expression and exchange of ideas in the legislature why nonviolent needs!

[Badger]

The difference between how most cops view open carry vs. "brandishing" is pretty black and white, tbf.

Literally black and white.

[Badger]

Oh please. Quit being such an apologist for thugs. Oh goodie! They didn't actually cock and point their guns at legislate arguing in favor of keeping the shut down! Nothing to see here! Totally business-as-usual compatible with the open expression and exchange of ideas in the legislature why nonviolent needs!

Some of us carry guns. Yes, all the time. Just because you don't like guns doesn't mean carrying guns is a threat ... let alone terrorism. Or is the terrorism that they opposed the suspension of our fundamental rights and breathed in public without wearing a mask. I've seen so much hateful invective directed at people who support the Bill of Rights these past months its kind of hard to tell why we should "muh killz the terrist protesters!" Quit being an apologist for a comment clearly calling for violence against protesters. What do you think "treat them like terrorists" means in this context?

Stop gaslighting. Such disingenuousness is beneath you. You act like this was nothing more than some protesters who just happened to have concealed handguns on them, maybe even some incidental open carry. These were a bunch of radicals thugs cosplaying soldiers. This isn't about the right to carry firearms. This is about blatant and completely undisguised attempt to intimidate legislators. Quit trying to conflate the Second Amendment with such terrorism.

If you really want to die on the hill of claiming well no one pointed a gun or screamed out oh, hey state representative X, I will shoot you if you vote for continuing the shutdown!, then so be it. Everyone else in the country who isn't being a delusional apologist for these idiots embodying the most fundamental threat of our democracy and somehow being second amendment compatible, is delusional.

 these people are very eager to try armed intimidation, because the fact remains that pull show vast vast majority of Voters, including even most Republicans I believe, support continuing the shutdown for the immediate future. We've seen such polls repeatedly in this thread. These little cosplay pussies can't win at The Ballot Box, so they're resorting to the bullet box.

The Second Amendment is designed to protect democracy, not be used as an excuse to supplant it.

[Badger]

Oh please. Quit being such an apologist for thugs. Oh goodie! They didn't actually cock and point their guns at legislate arguing in favor of keeping the shut down! Nothing to see here! Totally business-as-usual compatible with the open expression and exchange of ideas in the legislature why nonviolent needs!

Some of us carry guns. Yes, all the time. Just because you don't like guns doesn't mean carrying guns is a threat ... let alone terrorism. Or is the terrorism that they opposed the suspension of our fundamental rights and breathed in public without wearing a mask. I've seen so much hateful invective directed at people who support the Bill of Rights these past months its kind of hard to tell why we should "muh killz the terrist protesters!" Quit being an apologist for a comment clearly calling for violence against protesters. What do you think "treat them like terrorists" means in this context?

When you say you carry a gun "all the time"...do you carry a gun to the airport?  To a courthouse?  
I am completely shocked that anyone is allowed to take a gun into any state capitol.

Haven't flown in years. Dont carry at court because thats illegal, but they also have metal detectors and armed deputies to assume responsibility for your security. Im a government lawyer that takes people to court for taxes, utility debts, and code violations; I also prosecutes doggie death penalty cases ... I do get death threats from time to time. I was also the victim of stalking last year. So sorry my life isn't as boring as others in this thread.

And good for you. I get it, honestly I do. Also we decided not to get a gun despite concerns about some of the people I prosecuted and their families, but I get it that you do.

But there's a fundamental difference between you are responsible and, generally incidental - - I hope that it will always be the case - - handgun possession for protection, versus what these yahoos clearly did in attempt 2in intimidate or worse elected legislators.

The fact that Michigan state law regarding the capital is so effed up that it is legal to carry a semi-automatic into the bleachers of the State House chamber itself oh, but one can't bring a protest sign into the building - - I'm not exaggerating, a number of individuals protesting Medicaid Cuts in the building in the last year or so were arrested for carrying signs in the building contrary to law - - does not change how deplorable the clear and dangerous signal they actively attempted to send to legislators is.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1256607729151619073
I'm sure this has been posted already, but Donald Trump is the best thing that could've possibly happened to George W Bush's legacy. Just having someone show basic human compassion is incredibly refreshing.

A person can be a good human being and a stinky president at the same time.

I think overall GWB is a decent human being, and he tended to show real empathy for people, so this kind of message isn't out of character or all that surprising.

It is, however, silly to imply that his being a decent human being somehow forgives his political obliviousness to the stupidity of tax cuts and starting a war without any way to pay for it and all the other political mistakes he made.

Also, GWB is backing up the messaging of the White House here, calling it an "invisible enemy" and framing this as a war. Not a fan of that rhetorical choice at all. The rest is exactly what a president should be saying, so I appreciate that.

Respectfully disagree. W. Repeatedly and consistently demonstrated a shocking lack of basic human empathy , perhaps stemming from the same extremely privileged and predestined for success upbringing the Trump hat. He merely seems empathic as a person because, compared to a bona fide sociopath like Trump, he's practically Saint Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

[Badger]

So in the tradition of trying to assess politicians response to coronavirus equally without preconception of how good they are, and trying not to hold any cows sacred, there's discouraging news from Ohio.

 about a week ago posters were castigating Iowa governor Kim Reynolds, and possibly Kristi noem as well iirc, about announcing their statewood deny unemployment benefits two employees who were offered the opportunity to return to their jobs, but refused to do so out of fear of contagion in the workplace. Well,  Dewine was apparently  politically smart enough to not personally announce such an unpopular and dickensian policy, but Ohio Department of Job and Family Services which manages unemployment has just today announced that that is in fact the new policy here in Ohio.

Or at least there's a so-called presumption against providing unemployment in such circumstances. Regardless, you can bet your bottom dollar that that presumption will be damn near impossible to overcome in practice

I won't say I disapprove of dewine's performance overall, but he'll definitely just lost a few points in my book.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/status/1257432551683231759

Hard to remember that she's actually one of the most moderate to conservative Democrats in the Senate caucus.

[Badger]

Mandatory masks aren't touted by "the left", they're touted by people who take facts into consideration. There's a reason why countries like Taiwan and South Korea have been so much more effective in their response than this country has.

Perhaps I should have praised it differently. From a political perspective, it has been Democratic officials-predominantly governors and mayors-who have imposed the vast majority of the mandatory mask orders which have been issued within the states. Republican officials have-with the exceptions of Baker and Hogan-largely refrained from doing so. Moreover, polls have shown that Democrats are more likely than Republicans to wear masks or facial coverings in public-I noted an ABC News poll from a few weeks ago to that effect, indicating that 69% of Democrats and 47% of Republicans are wearing them in public. Democrats have also been more likely-as I've also noted-to consider them a necessary measure to combat the pandemic (which I agree with, but not to the extent of mandating it), while Republicans have viewed them as an instrument of control.

Yeah, you can pretty much tell when a Republican walks into a grocery store because everyone else is wearing a mask.

I accidentally left my mask at home when I went to the supermarket. Sunday night....

[Badger]

California Mayor is apparently trying to push the stay at home order through July (which isn't going to be necessary due to the case trend). Hopefully he realizes what that means and he will come back to reality, but expect riots if he doesn't.

I highly doubt there will be riots for that. I think most people have been expecting long lockdowns for a while now.

Through July? Lol no

Yeah, 4+ months of stay-at-home orders will not be tolerated well by many.

Too bad for them.

You must be one of those who prioritizes fighting the virus over gradually reopening the economy, a reopening process that would be attended with precautions. We've already seen the negative, and extensive economic impacts from the few months of shutdowns we've had. I think it would be in LA County's interest to adopt a "safer-at-home", phased reopening approach, similar to that occurring here in Colorado.

We are absolutely nowhere near prepared to reopen; look what is already happening to countries who’ve checked all the right boxes in order to reopen, yet are already seeing signs of a second wave. America half-assed its lockdowns, we have a large segment of our population unwilling to even wear a simple mask in public, have nowhere near enough PPE, and people think we are in any way prepared to begin reopening?

I'm certainly aware of the issues which we have seen for our reopening process, and it has been said for quite some time that there will be a second wave. However, would you advocate keeping large segments of the economy shuttered down for several months more? Let's say that we were to do that. What would be the economic consequences? The public health consequences? And by "public health consequences", I mean the risks associated with suicide, domestic violence, and other life-threatening diseases such as cancer and heart disease. These are in addition to the risks posed by coronavirus itself.

At some point, people will be forced to consider-as I've said before-their financial well-being, and balance it with concerns for their health. And many small business owners and workers cannot afford to be kept out of business for the duration which you propose. Unless if you welcome 30% unemployment, that is. And I'm certain, knowing your viewpoints, that you wouldn't.

You’re so close to a class conscious position, but you just can’t bring yourself over that line, huh? The response to that unfortunate situation is for the government to finally assume responsibility of securing people’s livelihoods. A few billionaires made obscene amounts of money during this crisis; as have other corporations and individuals well positioned to benefit. It’s time to halt this war of capitalists against workers; trying to coerce working people into sacrificing their wellbeing to maintain profits and this corrupt economic system. Anything short of shifting the burden onto the rich and privileged to secure the livelihoods of working people is unacceptable and will result in only more death and economic hardship.

We do eventually have to reopen. Now, I will argue we are doing it stupidly, and any reopening should probably include mask laws (I have changed my stance on this due to the inability of the American people to act sanely) and enforcement of social distancing when possible, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t  reopen. We can talk about government social networks as a way to alleviate some of the damage, but we can’t stay closed forever. FWIW, I do think Los Angeles should remain locked down now.

I'm in favor of Legally enforcing mask and social distancing laws in theory, but in practice I fear they will be a klusterfuk by police. Taking New York City as an example we over and over saw how white sunbathers in Central Park were ignored by the cops while young blacks congregating too closely together wound up getting wrestled to the ground and handcuffed on the pavement. The end result being that 35 out of 40 people in New York prosecuted for violating social distancing laws were black.

But then I guess that could be said about any new law. The chance, or in some cases even the likelihood, that it would be enforced on equally does it mean it's not at heart a necessary law, and cops just need to have a tighter rein placed on them.

[Badger]

The Wisconsin Supreme Court continues to be the worst:

https://twitter.com/MollyBeck/status/1260691610485964800?s=20

https://twitter.com/MollyBeck/status/1260692925211488256?s=20

Lame duck showing its ugly face here. I wonder if Evers would try again once Karofsky is on the court, especially with Hagedorn writing the dissent.

She doesn't join until August, but given Hagedorn flipped, he would presumably have the court's backing to act aggressively against a fall wave of COVID-19 and push the limits as DeWine did.

A couple years ago the seven-member Ohio Supreme Court had 2 justices step down oh, and one of The Replacements was Justice Dewine from Hamilton County, and yes son of governor dewine. Amazingly, while on the Hamilton County Court of Appeals , he never recused himself from any case before him argue by the Attorney General's office even while his father was a g. That's a good lead into what happened next.

Weeks before the two old justices stepped down, there were two important criminal cases decided by 4-3 margins interpreting laws in favor of the defense. In both cases the government filed a motion to reconsider these decisions that were handed down in mid-December, and when Justice dewine took the bench he joined the original Three dissenters in granting the motion to reconsider as well as reversing the Court's decision rendered barely a month earlier. Stare decisis be damned, the court granted a ruling based on power rather than jurisprudence. It still pisses me off to this day.

And you know what? As revolting as I find that, anymore I feel like progressives are continuing to play Marquis of Queensbury rules versus right-wingers perpetually taking sucker punches and low blows. I don't care if I sound like a hypocrite. I would give it exactly zero f**** if once Kelly steps down she and the three dissenters hear reverse this law.

[Badger]

Yep! Here's one of their little nuggets of 'wisdom' and "empirical" analyses:

"These kinds of phrases [Safer at Home] remind me of how abusers do something cruel and then say softly 'it's only because I care about you' or 'it's for your own good.' It's a combination of dominance, boundary violation, control and then gaslighting added on top to put you into a state of confusion so it's harder for you to challenge it/protect your boundaries/say no/leave etc."

There's a bunch more where that came from. I stand by my original statement. Good grief.

I don't necessarily agree with that quote, but it's not as bad as what appears on other sites.

“I don’t necessarily agree with comparing virus-prevention methods to domestic abuse....but....”
Are you seriously listening to yourself?
I’m not even against lifting some lockdowns at this point, but you can’t defend such a ridiculous quote with a both sides argument.

If you think he can't defend such a ridiculous quote with a bothsidesism, you sir have apparently not read Bandit's posting history.

[Badger]

Hope the Supreme Court is happy when this inevitably leads to bad results.

Right-wing judges don't care about outcomes, only about naked exercise of power.

Right-wingers are also wholly immune from any kind of consequences to their deadly actions.  It’ll be somebody else’s fault, naturally.

Probably Obama's.

[Badger]

Yep! Here's one of their little nuggets of 'wisdom' and "empirical" analyses:

"These kinds of phrases [Safer at Home] remind me of how abusers do something cruel and then say softly 'it's only because I care about you' or 'it's for your own good.' It's a combination of dominance, boundary violation, control and then gaslighting added on top to put you into a state of confusion so it's harder for you to challenge it/protect your boundaries/say no/leave etc."

There's a bunch more where that came from. I stand by my original statement. Good grief.

I don't necessarily agree with that quote, but it's not as bad as what appears on other sites.

“I don’t necessarily agree with comparing virus-prevention methods to domestic abuse....but....”
Are you seriously listening to yourself?
I’m not even against lifting some lockdowns at this point, but you can’t defend such a ridiculous quote with a both sides argument.

There are people unironically breathing sighs of relief because they can go get their hair done soon. It's nauseating to even consider the historical and contemporary juxtapositions to such a statement in the context that we live.

Well, In fairness, I'll be breathing a deep sigh of relief once I can get this overgrown mop on my head properly shorn.

The difference is I understand the difference between oppression and inconvenience.

[Badger]

There are people unironically breathing sighs of relief because they can go get their hair done soon. It's nauseating to even consider the historical and contemporary juxtapositions to such a statement in the context that we live.

I'm not worried about hair salons. I was more worried about society completely crumbling. That's how I ended up having a cardiac incident a couple weeks ago.

First, Bandit, please take care of yourself. Secondly, if you are so worried about the shutdown that you are getting yourself literal heart palpitations, you are taking this way too seriously. And consider, that's coming from me.