Transgender woman charged with indecent exposure over Ohio YMCA incident

[DaleCooper]

As I said previously: I can’t imagine what this woman must be going through. Imagine facing criminal charges and being plastered all over the news for being nude in a locker room.

Well, that's one way to read this story.

[DaleCooper]

It seems good that such a case will end up in the courts, so a precedence will be set whichever way it will end up. I really hope for the Democrats that this woman will end up losing.

I for one, am tired of this framing. First all, I think trying to make this about electoral politics, or some extremely speculative high-court decision is sort of ridiculous. If a crime was committed, hopefully it will be prosecuted with rigor, but I doubt we will hear very much more from this in the press. Sex crimes happen across the country all of the time it's very horrible. Don't know why this one specifically is here on USGD.

But I will say something on the issue of Democrats, and elections, because it was brought up. This notion that Trans Rights is some massive electoral albatross is not sustained by reality. In 2016, the NCGOP tied their fates to an absurd, widely-ridiculed Trans Bathroom Bill, and Roy Cooper was elected on a program of repealing that law. In 2022, Republicans just about everywhere ran on demonizing Trans Americans and railing about "gender ideology" in the schools, and in their inspired wisdom decided to make "the integrity of women's sports" a big campaign issue. In 2022, Republicans went down to defeat in a cataclysmic fashion. Herschel Walker ran an ad during the runoff period in Georgia with a female athlete (who wasn't even from Georgia) complaining about how her win in swimming was stolen or whatever. It was a totally pathetic ad in an aimless, doomed campaign, and he wasn't the only one. Walker, Tudor Dixon, Doug Mastriano, and others who tried to make Trans Rights a campaign issue were defeated by Democrats who didn't hedge on the issue, and made clear they supported basic rights and dignity for all their constituents. I suspect that if Republicans try to make Trans Rights a campaign issue again, they will once again be perceived as out-of-touch weirdos by the moderate middle, most of whom are perfectly content to live and let live.

I agree, it’s not necessary an albatross… but only as long as Democrats don’t make it an albatross. This woman was from we can read here physically very much still a man, if the courts decides that she have a right to use the same locker room as cis-women, they will have de facto abolished gendered locker rooms, which I suspect will result in a backlash. The failure of the mainstream Republican candidates to start a trans-panic in 2016 was very much connected to no one really pushing a strong pro-transgender narrative at the time. The discussion at the time was also about restrooms not locker rooms, and honestly the only reason we have separate restrooms is because of urinals, there’s no reason why men and women couldn’t use the same restrooms, locker rooms on the other hand are closely connected to being naked and therefore you will get a much stronger reaction to transwomen getting access to it.

What about the fact that homosexual men and women exist? Doesn't that put a giant hole in the argument that we have gendered locker rooms to protect the 'innocence' of the genders or whatever? I have absolutely zero attraction to the female body, so really you'd think it would be smarter to put gay men in the womens locker room following that logic... Of course like 98% of people I'm also not a creep and literally just wish to use a locker room to change and leave (I hate them any way and usually find somewhere private to change instead).

It has nothing to do with sexuality or innocence. The whole issue is that these women were under the impression that by using a women's facility they would not be exposed to males while changing, and they were. Whether you are sympathetic to that or not is a different question. Generally speaking, someone's answer to that question will indicate how they'll respond to a story like this.

[DaleCooper]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

[DaleCooper]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

[DaleCooper]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

If it’s so simple and easy, then I have two questions for you: 1) Who should be in charge of verifying the anatomy of everyone entering the changing room? And 2) when you say “shouldn’t” do you mean that you would ideally prefer to see private establishments like the YMCA set their policies accordingly, or do you mean that it should be literally illegal for an establishment to operate non-gendered locker rooms and trans women using the women’s locker room should be subject to criminal penalties regardless of the private establishment’s rules on the use of locker rooms?

1) No one is in charge of verifying the anatomy of people entering the changing room. Ideally people would abide by the social contract and not expose their penises in women's locker rooms.

2) Places like the YMCA have the right to do whatever they want but they should have a little class and let their patrons know that the women's room is the gender-inclusive personal identity room and not a designated area for females to change and shower.

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

Do you really not see any potential issues with forcing a trans woman to share a locker room with a bunch of cis men?

Also are you saying that it’s fine for a trans man to use the men’s changing room, but not fine for a trans woman to use the women’s changing room? Huh?

They don't have to use the men's locker room. I'm fine with a unisex facility as well. A unisex changing room is actually a pretty cheap and easy way to solve this problem, but I have a feeling the usual suspects would not like that either.

As for it being "fine" for a trans man to use the men's changing room, it just doesn't matter that much for pretty obvious reasons.

[DaleCooper]

Even if no harassment happens, women should not have to hope that the naked person with a penis in front of them is actually a feminine-identifying transgender person. That's not a reasonable accommodation that women should have to meet for pretty obvious reasons.

[DaleCooper]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

[DaleCooper]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

If you are, by definition, not clocking these trans women, then how can you possibly say that it's "pretty rare"? This is just survivorship bias, you only notice the trans women who don't pass, so you make this inference that it's rare for a trans woman to pass.

It's a pretty safe assumption, but I was more referring to women being misidentified as trans.

[DaleCooper]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

If you are, by definition, not clocking these trans women, then how can you possibly say that it's "pretty rare"? This is just survivorship bias, you only notice the trans women who don't pass, so you make this inference that it's rare for a trans woman to pass.

It's a pretty safe assumption

It very much isn't.

In the close proximity of a locker room, especially given that people in there are changing in and out of clothes, I think it's safe to say that the percentage of people who are mistaken for the wrong sex is incredibly small, and even that is understating it.

[DaleCooper]

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a dick pic from an evil cishet man it's an "act of violence" and "traumatic".

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a no-op transwoman in a locker room then she's just a prude and bigot if she doesn't like it.

One is getting a dick pic unwanted and for no reason out of the blue

The other is somewhere one could reasonably expect that to happen.

Why are all these conservatives acting like a penis is the most horrifying thing on the planet earth

This would be true if they were at a nude beach or some hippy nature resort, but they were in the women's locker room. The whole appeal of a women's locker room is that it is not a place where someone could reasonably expect to see a dick, lmao.

[DaleCooper]

For god sake have none of you heard of gyms. Not everyone wears underwear all the time at them and things can occasionally slip out. If you’re in a changing room where people are fully undressing you’re going to see genitals.

We can build a better world where private stalls are available in all gyms so this isn't an issue, trans or not. Lots of people of all orientations and identities just don't want to see other people's junk or have theirs seen by others.

This is a red herring. There have been awkward nerds scared of showing their junk in the locker room for generations. These women are not upset that they saw a naked person, they're upset that a dick was in their locker room while they were trying to change. It's frankly disrespectful to conflate that with the dork who refused to shower after gym class.

[DaleCooper]

For god sake have none of you heard of gyms. Not everyone wears underwear all the time at them and things can occasionally slip out. If you’re in a changing room where people are fully undressing you’re going to see genitals.

We can build a better world where private stalls are available in all gyms so this isn't an issue, trans or not. Lots of people of all orientations and identities just don't want to see other people's junk or have theirs seen by others.

This is a red herring. There have been awkward nerds scared of showing their junk in the locker room for generations. These women are not upset that they saw a naked person, they're upset that a dick was in their locker room while they were trying to change. It's frankly disrespectful to conflate that with the dork who refused to shower after gym class.

Do you not see any inconsistency in your angry and adamant defense of women who don't want to see unsolicited penes, but an equally angry adamant tone against men who feel the same way?

Like wherever you grew up had group showers at school and that's what you're used to, but that certainly wasn't the case where I grew up, and it's totally valid that some people prefer a different level of modesty than others. I'm not even saying that opening changing rooms should be banned, just that the option of stalls should be there. The fact that this solutoon can solve the issue from the OP without resorting to transphobia or exclusion is a happy bonus.

No, I don't see any inconsistency because these issues are not even remotely close to the same. The kid from Freaks & Geeks being afraid to let his peers see his ass in the shower is not even in the same ballpark as women entering a women's locker room, undressing, and then turning around to see a naked male standing in front of them. It's outrageous to pretend that these issues are similar.

Stalls won't even be relevant or helpful here because they would still need to be in a separate unisex area so that the women in the locker room wouldn't have to worry about it. Again, it's not just the nudity, it's the presence of people who look indistinguishable from men being in the locker room with women who are there specifically for privacy. And that's almost certainly going to be transphobic by the definition of most people here.

That's why I am being rude and dismissive of your locker room stall commentary. If you just said in an apolitical thread for random musings that you hate locker rooms, I wouldn't think twice about it, but you're coming into a thread about indecent exposure and trying to compare it to weird changing room anxiety. It's a completely unrelated distraction that has absolutely nothing to do with this whole incident.

[DaleCooper]

For god sake have none of you heard of gyms. Not everyone wears underwear all the time at them and things can occasionally slip out. If you’re in a changing room where people are fully undressing you’re going to see genitals.

We can build a better world where private stalls are available in all gyms so this isn't an issue, trans or not. Lots of people of all orientations and identities just don't want to see other people's junk or have theirs seen by others.

This is a red herring. There have been awkward nerds scared of showing their junk in the locker room for generations. These women are not upset that they saw a naked person, they're upset that a dick was in their locker room while they were trying to change. It's frankly disrespectful to conflate that with the dork who refused to shower after gym class.

Do you not see any inconsistency in your angry and adamant defense of women who don't want to see unsolicited penes, but an equally angry adamant tone against men who feel the same way?

Like wherever you grew up had group showers at school and that's what you're used to, but that certainly wasn't the case where I grew up, and it's totally valid that some people prefer a different level of modesty than others. I'm not even saying that opening changing rooms should be banned, just that the option of stalls should be there. The fact that this solutoon can solve the issue from the OP without resorting to transphobia or exclusion is a happy bonus.

No, I don't see any inconsistency because these issues are not even remotely close to the same. The kid from Freaks & Geeks being afraid to let his peers see his ass in the shower is not even in the same ballpark as women entering a women's locker room, undressing, and then turning around to see a naked male standing in front of them. It's outrageous to pretend that these issues are similar.

Stalls won't even be relevant or helpful here because they would still need to be in a separate unisex area so that the women in the locker room wouldn't have to worry about it. Again, it's not just the nudity, it's the presence of people who look indistinguishable from men being in the locker room with women who are there specifically for privacy. And that's almost certainly going to be transphobic by the definition of most people here.

That's why I am being rude and dismissive of your locker room stall commentary. If you just said in an apolitical thread for random musings that you hate locker rooms, I wouldn't think twice about it, but you're coming into a thread about indecent exposure and trying to compare it to weird changing room anxiety. It's a completely unrelated distraction that has absolutely nothing to do with this whole incident.

You seem to still be missing the key context here. What you are used to from your life is weird to me, and apparently what I've experienced my whole life is weird to you. I don't "hate locker rooms," I've just never been in one where men are getting totally naked in the open. Certainly not in a school setting ever, or at a gym as an adult either.

Maybe it's a South vs. Midwest thing, or something more granular, I don't know. If not for this forum, I probably never would have known how many people don't see anything strange about not having private changing areas.

It's very odd how defensive some people get about this topic. People have different experiences and preferences. Why the anger?

I'm not offended or defensive about your personal history with locker rooms. I am frustrated by the fact that you keep bringing up a silly pet issue that frankly isn't important and conflating it with an issue that women have every reason to be upset about.

It'd be like if there was a thread about people who couldn't afford their diabetes medicine and I went in and started complaining about how Walmart raised the prices of generic brand Benadryl. It's ridiculous and unrelated. You might as well be talking about emo concerts at that point for all the relevance that it has to the real issue.