Israel-Gaza war

[KaiserDave]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

Serious question: do you know what is going on? Assuming ignorance to be generous, alternative is much worse

[KaiserDave]

If Ukraine is invaded by Russia, Ukrainians have the right to fight back
When my country was invaded by Germany (TWICE), we have the right to fight back.
When Armenia is invaded by Azerbaijan, Armenia has the right to fight back
The same applies to Palestine.
The country is occupied as of today.
This is self defence.

I’m glad to know you think murdering civilians is self-defense. Mods, do your thing

[KaiserDave]

Jaichind discovers the news cycle. Wow! Impressive!

[KaiserDave]

Lapid calls for a grand coalition and wartime cabinet.

Ideally the fascist madmen in RZ would be immediately booted from all positions of authority and a grand coalition could be formed, but I am more pessimistic, it is more likely that they stay in government and benefit from this horror-show.

[KaiserDave]

Today's events once again prove that there is a contingent of people whose politics boil down to a scatological worship of death and killing. There must always be people who can have the basic moral fortitude and cool head to condemn the murder of civilians, wherever it happens.

[KaiserDave]

I think there is truth to the statement that the right-wing occupation disaster has weakened the defensive capabilities of the IDF. Hopefully there will be an investigation into how this travesty was allowed to occur. Cool heads must prevail.

https://twitter.com/GONENB1/status/1710568015396270226?s=20

Google translated: My father, Brigadier General Uzi Ben Yitzchak, who was the commander of the Central Command, asked me to ask why they don't tell the truth: 26 battalions, almost all of the regular IDF is in the territories. There is almost no army in the south. All this by a decision of an extreme right-wing government.

It should be said clearly.

Forces should be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza and close the fence at all costs and not let them return to Gaza

[KaiserDave]

A thought: what does Hamas really see as its core constituency? What does it see as its goals? We should not look at this purely from the perspective of territory, we should think of this in terms of political goals achieved or flunked, or neither (and not just short-term ones).
Even a conventional defeat might play into Hamas' hands, as Bibi and co could have difficulty getting their goals through in both Gaza and West Bank simultaneously, and the Arab World would be more outraged at what Israeli military actions unfold in Gaza than at Hamas' actions. If its mojo of fighting the Israelis is in better shape than at the start, and they aren't completely smashed, this might even be a net win outcome for Hamas, given they oppose normalization, and value cred as a premier anti-Israeli force in the eyes of the Arab street.
Of course, a messy outcome leaves room for both Hamas and Bibi to end up as net winners in the short-term. Long-term, is another story.

I don’t see Bibi coming out out this as a winner, he has clearly failed the Israeli population, I expect this will result in even more extreme parties coming out on the top. As for Hamas, I don’t expect a lot of survivors.

While it does feel a little crass for me to speculate about electoral implications, it does seem like this poses a strong opening for someone like Benny Gantz, who is seen as a credible national security guy.

The thing is, much like the second Intifada, an attack of this scale and viciousness ends the chances of any pro-concessions movement for a long time. So attacking Netanyahu on his failings as a security chief and promising effective action against the enemy might be a winning strategy for his top opposition.

No. You don't get it. Gantz, Netanyahu etc, this doesn't help any of them. This is the most radical right-shift in Israeli history.

I don't think you get that the foreign policy of everyone to the right of Meretz will be identical after this.

Ben Gvir and his ilk being in the government right now isn't going to help them.

That's a good reason to support Meretz.

[KaiserDave]

A thought: what does Hamas really see as its core constituency? What does it see as its goals? We should not look at this purely from the perspective of territory, we should think of this in terms of political goals achieved or flunked, or neither (and not just short-term ones).
Even a conventional defeat might play into Hamas' hands, as Bibi and co could have difficulty getting their goals through in both Gaza and West Bank simultaneously, and the Arab World would be more outraged at what Israeli military actions unfold in Gaza than at Hamas' actions. If its mojo of fighting the Israelis is in better shape than at the start, and they aren't completely smashed, this might even be a net win outcome for Hamas, given they oppose normalization, and value cred as a premier anti-Israeli force in the eyes of the Arab street.
Of course, a messy outcome leaves room for both Hamas and Bibi to end up as net winners in the short-term. Long-term, is another story.

I don’t see Bibi coming out out this as a winner, he has clearly failed the Israeli population, I expect this will result in even more extreme parties coming out on the top. As for Hamas, I don’t expect a lot of survivors.

While it does feel a little crass for me to speculate about electoral implications, it does seem like this poses a strong opening for someone like Benny Gantz, who is seen as a credible national security guy.

The thing is, much like the second Intifada, an attack of this scale and viciousness ends the chances of any pro-concessions movement for a long time. So attacking Netanyahu on his failings as a security chief and promising effective action against the enemy might be a winning strategy for his top opposition.

No. You don't get it. Gantz, Netanyahu etc, this doesn't help any of them. This is the most radical right-shift in Israeli history.

I don't think you get that the foreign policy of everyone to the right of Meretz will be identical after this.

Ben Gvir and his ilk being in the government right now isn't going to help them.

No, it won't. Labor is not going to call for the elimination of the Gaza Strip. After today, probably 40%+ of Israeli voters, maybe even a majority, would.

A good reason to support Labor.

[KaiserDave]

A thought: what does Hamas really see as its core constituency? What does it see as its goals? We should not look at this purely from the perspective of territory, we should think of this in terms of political goals achieved or flunked, or neither (and not just short-term ones).
Even a conventional defeat might play into Hamas' hands, as Bibi and co could have difficulty getting their goals through in both Gaza and West Bank simultaneously, and the Arab World would be more outraged at what Israeli military actions unfold in Gaza than at Hamas' actions. If its mojo of fighting the Israelis is in better shape than at the start, and they aren't completely smashed, this might even be a net win outcome for Hamas, given they oppose normalization, and value cred as a premier anti-Israeli force in the eyes of the Arab street.
Of course, a messy outcome leaves room for both Hamas and Bibi to end up as net winners in the short-term. Long-term, is another story.

I don’t see Bibi coming out out this as a winner, he has clearly failed the Israeli population, I expect this will result in even more extreme parties coming out on the top. As for Hamas, I don’t expect a lot of survivors.

While it does feel a little crass for me to speculate about electoral implications, it does seem like this poses a strong opening for someone like Benny Gantz, who is seen as a credible national security guy.

The thing is, much like the second Intifada, an attack of this scale and viciousness ends the chances of any pro-concessions movement for a long time. So attacking Netanyahu on his failings as a security chief and promising effective action against the enemy might be a winning strategy for his top opposition.

No. You don't get it. Gantz, Netanyahu etc, this doesn't help any of them. This is the most radical right-shift in Israeli history.

I don't think you get that the foreign policy of everyone to the right of Meretz will be identical after this.

Ben Gvir and his ilk being in the government right now isn't going to help them.

No, it won't. Labor is not going to call for the elimination of the Gaza Strip. After today, probably 40%+ of Israeli voters, maybe even a majority, would.

A good reason to support Labor.

Maybe. I don't agree, but regardless it is important to understand that this is not a "helps x at the expense of y" situation but rather a paradigm shift.

Yeah it's terrifying. Moderate voices of reasons marginalized, arsonists and madmen elevated.

[KaiserDave]

A thought: what does Hamas really see as its core constituency? What does it see as its goals? We should not look at this purely from the perspective of territory, we should think of this in terms of political goals achieved or flunked, or neither (and not just short-term ones).
Even a conventional defeat might play into Hamas' hands, as Bibi and co could have difficulty getting their goals through in both Gaza and West Bank simultaneously, and the Arab World would be more outraged at what Israeli military actions unfold in Gaza than at Hamas' actions. If its mojo of fighting the Israelis is in better shape than at the start, and they aren't completely smashed, this might even be a net win outcome for Hamas, given they oppose normalization, and value cred as a premier anti-Israeli force in the eyes of the Arab street.
Of course, a messy outcome leaves room for both Hamas and Bibi to end up as net winners in the short-term. Long-term, is another story.

I don’t see Bibi coming out out this as a winner, he has clearly failed the Israeli population, I expect this will result in even more extreme parties coming out on the top. As for Hamas, I don’t expect a lot of survivors.

While it does feel a little crass for me to speculate about electoral implications, it does seem like this poses a strong opening for someone like Benny Gantz, who is seen as a credible national security guy.

The thing is, much like the second Intifada, an attack of this scale and viciousness ends the chances of any pro-concessions movement for a long time. So attacking Netanyahu on his failings as a security chief and promising effective action against the enemy might be a winning strategy for his top opposition.

No. You don't get it. Gantz, Netanyahu etc, this doesn't help any of them. This is the most radical right-shift in Israeli history.

I don't think you get that the foreign policy of everyone to the right of Meretz will be identical after this.

Ben Gvir and his ilk being in the government right now isn't going to help them.

No, it won't. Labor is not going to call for the elimination of the Gaza Strip. After today, probably 40%+ of Israeli voters, maybe even a majority, would.

A good reason to support Labor.

Maybe. I don't agree, but regardless it is important to understand that this is not a "helps x at the expense of y" situation but rather a paradigm shift.

Yeah it's terrifying. Moderate voices of reasons marginalized, arsonists and madmen elevated.

I think that after today it is worth questioning what constitutes a voice of reason, just as it was worth questioning after the failure of Oslo.

Proposing the vaporization of Gaza and the murder of thousands of people doesn't strike me as very reasonable.

[KaiserDave]

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1710708371593052456

[KaiserDave]

Civilians who survived the attack on a big outdoor party tell of terrorists shooting at people who were raising their hands and begging for mercy. If some tankies here want to know what not to shed any tears for

The same ones who held a picnic and cheered on airstrikes on Gaza last time this happened, or different ones?

Is this supposed to somehow justify the extrajudicial murder of civilians? Personally I still have somewhat of a problem with it, I don’t know about you.

[KaiserDave]

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1710708371593052456

It also doesn't help that Israeli forces have been tied down protecting colonial settlements in the West Bank rather than actually defending the border.

Don't misread me: I'm not saying that Israel, or the Israeli people especially, deserve this. I am saying the shocking lack of readiness on the part of the government is a direct consequence of their shortsighted and stupid actions in recent years. I don't even know how it's possible for an attack of this scale to be coordinated in 2023 without someone tipping something off.

I agree

[KaiserDave]

Civilians do not deserve to be killed because of their political beliefs, no matter how repugnant they are. Not a hard concept. I have not minced words when it comes to people who support Russia, or those who sit on the sidelines, they don’t deserve to be killed.

[KaiserDave]

Civilians do not deserve to be killed because of their political beliefs, no matter how repugnant they are. Not a hard concept. I have not minced words when it comes to people who support Russia, or those who sit on the sidelines, they don’t deserve to be killed.

The drunk guy who picks up a rattlesnake doesn't deserve to die either.

You made it pretty clear you thought they did deserve it.

[KaiserDave]

Civilians do not deserve to be killed because of their political beliefs, no matter how repugnant they are. Not a hard concept. I have not minced words when it comes to people who support Russia, or those who sit on the sidelines, they don’t deserve to be killed.

The drunk guy who picks up a rattlesnake doesn't deserve to die either.

You made it pretty clear you thought they did deserve it.

Actions having consequences is a description, not a prescription.

Sure bucko. Killing civilians, is bad actually. You’re not smart or nuanced or enlightened because you’re equivocating over this

[KaiserDave]

Terrified that this will accelerate existing right-wing, racist, trends in Israeli society. If Gantz had any guts (he doesn’t) he’d demand the removal of that thug Ben Gvir from the cabinet as a condition for a unity coalition.

[KaiserDave]

This is a terrible tragedy, both for the Israelis killed by the Hamas attack and especially for all innocent Palestinians who will no doubt be in IDF prison camps by the end of the month, if the regime even allows them to live that long.

"I'm sorry for both the victims, and the future victims of the terrible scenario I made up in my head".

Sure but you don’t even need to make up victims, Palestinian civilians are already dead.

[KaiserDave]

This is a terrible tragedy, both for the Israelis killed by the Hamas attack and especially for all innocent Palestinians who will no doubt be in IDF prison camps by the end of the month, if the regime even allows them to live that long.

"I'm sorry for both the victims, and the future victims of the terrible scenario I made up in my head".

Sure but you don’t even need to make up victims, Palestinian civilians are already dead.

Yes, as in every case where a war is launched by a vicious attack from an undermanned, weaker force against a stronger power. Israel's response is absolutely proportional compared to how the US would respond to an attack like this.

The idea that the Palestinian population is about to be liquidated is a fiction and arguably a blood libel.

The idea that you can’t show concern for the victims of Israel’s counter attack is totally baffling to me, their lives hold equal worth.

[KaiserDave]

Ahahhahahahhahahah. Okay seems like Snowstalker has officially jumped the shark now.

[KaiserDave]

And he doubles down!!! Ahahhahaha

[KaiserDave]

In more relevant news (which may have already been posted here) Muslims in London and Berlin have publicly celebrated the terrorist attacks. Videos show processions of honking vehicles in London and sweets being handed out in Berlin.

DSA-NY is planning a rally celebrating the attack in New York tomorrow as well. If two years ago is any indication, it'll spill out and target the Jewish community. I hope Adams is on the ball, unlike De Blasio who actively allowed the NY pogrom to take place mostly unimpeded.

This is incredibly sensationalist, inaccurate, and just renders the term entirely pointless but we are clogging this thread. It has more important matters, like Snowstalker's weird DDR apologia.

[KaiserDave]

Somehow this empty nonsense is the least embarrassing statement put out by a sitting officeholder. Gretch '28.
https://twitter.com/GovWhitmer/status/1710770542461010050?s=20

https://twitter.com/GovWhitmer/status/1710811816622735823

[KaiserDave]

https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/1710777795159228886?t=wajpLhMMxHwcSi0A...

At this point I really don't see why Mods aren't letting us have these discussions. If Likud is having this discussion then I think it is worth considering. I am a free speech absolutist, so I do have a much greater tolerance for this kind of stuff even in other fields, but given the circumstances I do think that in the coming days both Israel and certain Western factions may be considering/supporting options like this.

You really want to openly call for ethnic cleansing and genocide. It's been obvious all day. And no, Likud is not a good barometer for what is and isn't acceptable on this site.

[KaiserDave]

This thread is full of the most deranged and dangerous delusion, the most absurd ignorance, and the most vile bloodlust. It's sickening. I didn't want to say anything but now I feel like I have to. Firstly, anyone who blames Jews for their own deaths, simply shut up (Edit: I see you reccing this post who do you think I am talking about). That is the absolute nicest way I can put it. I would much rather say how I really feel but restraint is important.

But onto my primary point. Sorry, if you think it's okay to suggest that 2 million people should pick up and leave their homes, be driven elsewhere, that is deranged. You are not a serious person, you're either very ignorant or you're a dangerous fiend who thankfully isn't in a position of real power (unfortunately there are people like you who are).

You are suggesting the IDF conquer Gaza, then go house to house and round up the Arabs (on what legal basis? how do you decide who goes?) and then force them into trucks, and if they resist? What if they don't go? Do you feel comfortable detaining them in overcrowded jails or camps, what about summarily shooting them (Ben-Gvir I think would approve)? What will it take? You then want to invade Egypt, and plop 2 million people into the Sinai.

That is deranged, thousands would die. It is not only ethnic cleansing, it is indeed borderline genocidal. It's true that Hamas has taken Gaza hostage for their antisemitic death mission, but if this is your solution, you are completely, utterly mad. You are deranged.