Reps and Religion?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Where does God say that you must force others to follow your moral code?  To convert them?  Even if acting moral is illegal, that does not mean you will make those people believe and save their souls.

And how would you feel if Christianity was the minority religion, and the majority was persecuting you because practicing Christianity is "immoral"?

Not all my moral codes - but basic ones - a good government is one that follows God's code - it says that.  No murder (abortion), gay marriage - but tithing is not a government regulated authority.

Even if Christianity were the minority religion, it's still the only right religion.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Not all my moral codes - but basic ones - a good government is one that follows God's code - it says that.  No murder (abortion), gay marriage - but tithing is not a government regulated authority.

That's not really a basic moral code.  That's actually a series of very specific interpretations of old codes, that weren't basic to begin with.  Are you making a religious argument against taxation in your last sentence?

STRAWMAN!

Jesus himself told his disciples that it was Caeser's right to tax the people (and really duty, so that the gov't can function).

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But you wouldn't object, because they are in the majority, and that entitles them to force their religion on you?
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I'd object because I'm right and they're wrong.  But I may not be able to physically stop them.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

STRAWMAN!

What there's a strawman?  I just argued with you about the baseness of the codes.  Then I asked you a question.  I don't see where there was a strawman.

Jesus himself told his disciples that it was Caeser's right to tax the people (and really duty, so that the gov't can function).

I'd object because I'm right and they're wrong.  But I may not be able to physically stop them.

Fair enough.

It's a strawman b/c you tried to take a command to tithe to mean that the gov't should make you pay taxes.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

It's a strawman b/c you tried to take a command to tithe to mean that the gov't should make you pay taxes.

I wasn't arguing that...

I was actually asking a question.  I don't really know what a "command to tithe" is, in the Biblical sense.  My Biblical knowledge is deeply lacking.

I couldn't defend, or oppose, taxes (or anything) based on Biblical knowledge if my life depended on it.

My apologies - I just figured somebody as smart as you was somewhat versed Biblically - (I know that sounds mean and sarcastic, but it's not meant to be - I'm just trying to explain what happened in my mind - so again, my apologies for the misunderstanding).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Even if Christianity were the minority religion, it's still the only right religion.

Please do not clutter up the forum with your useless assertions of personal preference, Inks.  There cannot be any objective morality, as evidenced by the fact that while you like christianity, I dislike it.

The only thing that matters is who has the gun, Inks old boy.  Right now you religious have it.. better hope it stays that way.

It's not personal preference - a question was asked, and I answered it honestly (offensively, but honestly).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Well from one Christian to another, we can't push our views on others. Did Jesus push his views on others? No, he simply told them want he believe. God created humans to have the will to choose the paths in their life, whether it is right or wrong. Having the Government controling what morals to push on the people is a very bad idea, because you can get someone in power like Hitler, then what? The fact is we have free will to do what we want when we want.

There's a difference b/t morals and clear commands that God wants to government to legislate.

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Our government's supposed to be secular (and Christianity isn't the only "right" religion; people can choose whatever the hell they want to believe)

No - it was founded on Christianity.

and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you

Now, I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but doesn't the line, "Give to God that which is God's, and give to Caesar that which is Caesar's," imply that government and religion are two distinct and separate spheres?

Yeah - separate when it comes to "optional" things like that quote - giving and tithing - not murder or other things.

Tell me, why is murder illegal?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Now, I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but doesn't the line, "Give to God that which is God's, and give to Caesar that which is Caesar's," imply that government and religion are two distinct and separate spheres?

Yeah - separate when it comes to "optional" things like that quote - giving and tithing - not murder or other things.
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I believe Jesus's line I quoted was directly referring to taxation. Tell me: since when have taxes been "optional"?

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Come on now. The fact that murder is bad is in no way a Christian thing. Murder is against the law because the institution of government, as stated in the declaration of independance and such, is meant to preserve the right of life.

If the illegality of murder is due to strictly Christian influences, as you argue, then why was murder against the law in the soviet union?
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My whole poin was that taxes are always mandatory and tithing is optional - I don't know what you're trying to say if you're saying otherwise.

My point about murder is, where did it stem from as being wrong?  It stemmed Biblically from Cain and Abel - so all of humanity thinks it's wrong (other than VERY rare sectors) - so even though the USSR was atheistic, it stemmed from Christianity, because Chrsitianity stemmed from Judaism in the Old Testament.

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Well from one Christian to another, we can't push our views on others. Did Jesus push his views on others? No, he simply told them want he believe. God created humans to have the will to choose the paths in their life, whether it is right or wrong. Having the Government controling what morals to push on the people is a very bad idea, because you can get someone in power like Hitler, then what? The fact is we have free will to do what we want when we want.

There's a difference b/t morals and clear commands that God wants to government to legislate.

The fact is, you want to push our views on others and that is wrong. You tell them and show them what the Bible says, plant the seed, God will do the rest. We do not go around pushing veiws on non christain, because 99% of the times that pushes them away from God.

There are certain boundaries where the government is supposed to push Biblicism on the people.

And for the story about pushing Christianity - that does anger me - we shouldn't convert you.  I'm talking about basic rights - life, no gay marriage, but if you want to be gay in your house - I'm fine w/ it.  Kinky sex - fine w/ it.  Getting drunk in your house - fine w/ it (as long as you don't harm others).  It's only when it applies to others or it's protecting you should the gov't get involved.  We shouldn't have Christianity as a national religion either.

Tell me, why is murder illegal?

Because it hurts other people, and any functioning government has the obligation to respect and protect basic rights.

Nothing to do with the Bible.

And where do these "basic rights" stem from?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

My point about murder is, where did it stem from as being wrong?  It stemmed Biblically from Cain and Abel - so all of humanity thinks it's wrong (other than VERY rare sectors) - so even though the USSR was atheistic, it stemmed from Christianity, because Chrsitianity stemmed from Judaism in the Old Testament.

The idea of killing innocents being wrong is not a Christian invention.  And, by your logic, if it transfers from Judaism to Christianity, it also stems from secular humanism.  And doesn't that mean we should be enforcing all of the moral centers of Judaism?  Are you keeping kosher?

Not that it matters.  Christianity did not invent anything in the murder realm.  Murder was considered wrong before Christianity; it's still wrong.  Human sacrifice may have not been wrong in some areas, but its elimination has no more to do with Christianity than other religions.

No - Judaism started w/ Adam and Eve - 1st humans, but now we'll get into an origins debate.

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Wait, wait a moment here.  Homosexual sex in private is fine, but not gay marriage, even though the Bible only speaks out against homosexual sex?  It doesn't speak against homosexual marriage.[/quote]

It's still wrong and a sin, but the gov't has no place in the private home - if it's in public, it's wrong.  But I wouldn't fight it if they made gay sex illegal.

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Even in pre-Biblical times, killing was considered to be wrong.  Do you think people were just killing each other randomly, and then getting away with it?  What exactly did the Christians or Jews invent here that was new, and justifies enforcing their morality universally?
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No - nothing existed in pre-Biblical times.

My point about murder is, where did it stem from as being wrong?  It stemmed Biblically from Cain and Abel - so all of humanity thinks it's wrong (other than VERY rare sectors) - so even though the USSR was atheistic, it stemmed from Christianity, because Chrsitianity stemmed from Judaism in the Old Testament.

I'm fairly sure that people already weren't okay with murder before Christianity even existed.  Do you honestly think that people need God to tell them that it's a bad idea to go around killing everyone you see?

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

Does that even have any Biblical origin behind it, or are you just making stuff up now?  I can't recall reading one single mention of the notion of conscience in the Bible.

Not directly, but being a dispensationalist, I believe that it falls in the dispensation of Conscience - so is it "made up" yes - but it's a principle.  Applied principles - kinda like Calvinism and Arminianism.

It's still wrong and a sin, but the gov't has no place in the private home - if it's in public, it's wrong.  But I wouldn't fight it if they made gay sex illegal.

Why does the government have right to enforce morality in marriage, but not in the private home?  Why is Biblical morality excluded from the home?

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What is so horrible about thinking about morality logically?  You make it sound like it's a primitive form of thought.  You may disagree with it, but that's not the point.

And if your point was (seemingly), we have to enforce Biblical morality, because without it, murder would be considered moral.  You just conceded that, that isn't true.  So...what's up with that?

My point was that all morality stems from God, not necessarily the Law, but from the dispensation of innocence, to conscience, increased during law and human gov't, and now the church, ultimately to the Kingdom, when there will be no sin.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

Does that even have any Biblical origin behind it, or are you just making stuff up now?  I can't recall reading one single mention of the notion of conscience in the Bible.

Not directly, but being a dispensationalist, I believe that it falls in the dispensation of Conscience - so is it "made up" yes - but it's a principle.  Applied principles - kinda like Calvinism and Arminianism.

So, basically, your arguments work if you already believed the assumptions leading to them, but they don't if you didn't.

Congratulations; you've successfully built a tautology, but don't expect to actually convince anyone of anything.

Although I have to ask: if something has no Biblical origin, how exactly does one come to treat it as if it were equal to something within the Bible?

That's my whole point - people believe different things, but only the Christians are the ones believing the right thing.

And this stuff is Biblical, it's just not quoted.  Just like people claim that Jesus wasn't God becuase he never said "I am God" - but he said other things that mean exactly the same thing.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Because the gov't job is to control public social things, not private things.

So, then you support abolishing government control of marriage and letting people decide privately?  And support legalizing drugs?  You have a rather high social score there for that belief.

No, b/c those are social/public things/thigns that affect others.

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But murder being unethical is an idea that has been around since before the Bible was around.  Your claim was that the government needs to enforce Christianity because otherwise  there would be no sense of morality.  My point is, humanist ethics serve as morality just fine, and did before the Bible and Christianity were around.  That defeats your point -- there is no societal crisis when Christian morality is gone.

So, why again does the government NEED to enforce Christian morals when humanist ethics control the immediate danger to society?
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OK - not Christianity, but Biblicism, to make this easier to debate - Christianity was the wrong word, but it's the current manifestation of Biblicism, and true, the written Bible wasn't always around, but the events in it start at the very beginning of the universe.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

I'll let you have your ... opinion on the others, but saying Christianity is the only right religion is a stupid comment. It's because of closed-up people like you that I'm agnostic now.

OK - I know it's my very opinionated belief, but just like there's a debate on global warming - not everybody's right - truth isn't relevant, it's absolute.

That's my whole point - people believe different things, but only the Christians are the ones believing the right thing.

You can believe that without believing that you should enforce your moral sense on everyone.  This nation is hypermajority Christian.  Clearly, not all of them feel as you do.

And this stuff is Biblical, it's just not quoted.  Just like people claim that Jesus wasn't God becuase he never said "I am God" - but he said other things that mean exactly the same thing.

Then quote the equivalent passages or just say you made it up...

I think we'd rather not get into a Bible war here, but I think Gabu was questioning whether the spirit of what you said is even in the Bible at all.

It's just applied Bible.  God judged Cain because Cain should've known that Cain shouldn't have killed Abel.  This is called a conscience - it's not written wit that quoted, but that's the interpretation.  God relied on love for Adam and Eve to obey him when they were still perfect (thus the dispensation of innocense), but they chose to obey their flesh.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

That's my whole point - people believe different things, but only the Christians are the ones believing the right thing.

Okay, but what's the point of saying so?  Does it make you feel better about yourself, or do you honestly think other people will be convinced by your saying that you're right?

It's not that I feel better - it's that I'm saying the truth - just like saying 2+2=4 to a group of people who are claiming it's 5.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No, b/c those are social/public things/thigns that affect others.

How does someone smoking pot in their own home effect others?  How is sex not "social"?

Because it greatly reduces their judgment, so they may harm themselves or others.  Sex between 2 consenting adults isn't publically social.

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That doesn't make any sense.  Christianity can't "claim" things that just happened to happen during its evolution.  And it still has nothing to do with the point that ethics would do fine without Biblicism, as you put it.
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It's all rooted in the book of Genesis - so we have a record from the 1st second God started the universe - so it is part of Christianity/Biblicism.

Tell me, why is murder illegal?

Because it hurts other people, and any functioning government has the obligation to respect and protect basic rights.

Nothing to do with the Bible.

And where do these "basic rights" stem from?

Common sense, my dear Inks, common sense.

A society can't function if people can kill or rape or steal from each other.

So, what falls under common sense?  Is it common sense to everybody when somebody cuts you off on the road?

When a girl says "no" does she really mean yes?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Don't use personal attacks as your point - just stick to the issue.