If another great depression happened within in this decade.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

It would depend who was in power when the depression hit.

And the Tea Partiers aren't fascist.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

And the Tea Partiers aren't fascist.

I don't use the word lightly....but they're certainly the closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time.

Sorry, then you have no clue what fascism is.

Barack Obama and the current U.S. regime is the "closest to a fascist movement the U.S. has had in a long time."
Not ordinary people protesting out-of-control deficit spending.

Both of you are wrong.

Neither the Tea Party movement nor Obama are anything close to fascist, and I'd like Franzl and Libertas to please explain how the Tea Partiers and Obama are, respectively.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Even still.  The closest some of them come to fascism might be a form of nationalism (and even that doesn't apply to most of the group, in my opinion), but that's certainly only a small part of fascism.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Even still.  The closest some of them come to fascism might be a form of nationalism (and even that doesn't apply to most of the group, in my opinion), but that's certainly only a small part of fascism.

Their lack of repect for the rule of law is very disturbing, IMO.

I'm thinking of demanding that terror suspects be denied their constitutional rights, for example....and especially using that to "protect America".

Where are Tea Partiers addressing treatment of terror suspects?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

but that's certainly only a small part of fascism.

Oi, I'd disagree with you there. There are many different shades of Fascism, but I'd argue that the one thing that they all have in common is nationalism, albeit of a more extreme variety.

Yes, but being a nationalist doesn't mean you're a fascist.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The Obama regime's entire economic philosophy is rooted in fascism, i.e., private ownership, public control. We have ongoing wars and insane military spending, we have nationalized corporations, we have an expanding leviathan state. Obama rose to power on an astroturf-generated cult of personality funded by the Wall Street banks, which coincidentally are also corporations now attached closely to the fascist regime in Washington.

Some of the economy may be controlled by the government, but it's nowhere close to a level of overall fascism.

The American government is nowhere near an authoritarian government, even though the state may be expanding.

And would you consider Obama to be a nationalist?  Because if not, you've lost a key tennent of fascism right there.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Fascism worships the state as the nation, not the people.

Hardly. It's closer to the other way round, though more complicated than that. One People, One Will, One Leader and all that (haha!) jazz. Totalitarianism is a myth created by the sort of people that I'd normally assume you'd hate.

Al's right here.  While there are some that would define nationalism as the state being the highest in terms of importance, that definition of nationalism doesn't fit with the nationalism that describes fascism.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Fascism worships the state as the nation, not the people.

Hardly. It's closer to the other way round, though more complicated than that. One People, One Will, One Leader and all that (haha!) jazz. Totalitarianism is a myth created by the sort of people that I'd normally assume you'd hate.

A fascist would consider the people to belong to the state.

But that's not nationalism.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Fascism worships the state as the nation, not the people.

Hardly. It's closer to the other way round, though more complicated than that. One People, One Will, One Leader and all that (haha!) jazz. Totalitarianism is a myth created by the sort of people that I'd normally assume you'd hate.

A fascist would consider the people to belong to the state.

But that's not nationalism.

It's nationalism in the sense employed by Mussolini and Obama. Mussolini didn't really care about the Italian people any more than Obama cares about the American people. They care merely about exploiting nationalism to serve the state.

You're trying to use this abstract idea to distract from the fact that in terms of real policies, Obama's decidedly lean toward fascism.

No - I'm not.  Because Obama isn't exploiting nationalism.  And that's part of what I'm using to prove that you're wrong here.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

He wanted to unite America.  That's not nationalism - that's trying to get as many votes as you can in an election.

Whether or not I'm nitpicking, Obama is not overall a fascist.  He may adhere to some of the tenets of fascims, but he is nowhere close to being an all-out fascist.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

He wanted to unite America.  That's not nationalism - that's trying to get as many votes as you can in an election.

Whether or not I'm nitpicking, Obama is not overall a fascist.  He may adhere to some of the tenets of fascims, but he is nowhere close to being an all-out fascist.

Uh, no, he definitely is a fascist, even if your claims about him lacking 'nationalism' were true. The core of fascism is its economic and social policies, not the propaganda it uses.

You've only mentioned economic policies.  What social policies of his are fascist?

And in terms of economics, government control of corporations is not widespread - it's limited to a select handful of sectors.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

He wanted to unite America.  That's not nationalism - that's trying to get as many votes as you can in an election.

Whether or not I'm nitpicking, Obama is not overall a fascist.  He may adhere to some of the tenets of fascims, but he is nowhere close to being an all-out fascist.

Uh, no, he definitely is a fascist, even if your claims about him lacking 'nationalism' were true. The core of fascism is its economic and social policies, not the propaganda it uses.

You've only mentioned economic policies.  What social policies of his are fascist?

Under Obama, the U.S. government is corporatizing healthcare even further, for example.

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Not really. Did you see my earlier post on the subject?

The one where you showed that the % of government spending as part of GDP?  Yeah - it was under 45%, so not even half of the economy - in a fascist economy that'd be much higher.

Furthermore, a true fascist would be an enemy of unions, and Obama is no enemy of American unions.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The one where you showed that the % of government spending as part of GDP?  Yeah - it was under 45%, so not even half of the economy - in a fascist economy that'd be much higher.

Uh, Inks, do you believe in a free market system? If so, I have a hard time believing that you aren't alarmed that anything even close to half of the entire U.S. economy is now government spending.

I am alarmed, but it hasn't crossed to a point of fascism.

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A fascist would oppose independent unions that promoted some Marxian ideology, but not unions that are essentially corporate outgrowths of the state as they are in the U.S. Unions actually play a strong role in fascistic national syndicalist ideology. There's certainly no conflict between corporatist unions and fascism.
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I have a hard time agreeing that the majority of unions in America are corporatist unions - perhaps the largest, but not a majority of them.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

And Marokai, that's what I've been trying to get at.  That's why my "nitpicking" is key - there are aspects of fascism that are part of many political ideologies.  The points I'm "nitpicking" are the tenets of fascism that Obama lacks that changes his actions from fascist to simply big government, something that, in and of itself, is not fascist.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

That was my point - that many labor unions have become supportive of the Democrat Party, and that that goes contrary to fascism.  You're using your assumption that the Obama administration is fascist to prove your claim that the labor unions are connected to a fascist government to prove that the Obama administration is a fascist administration.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Slashing spending (including the military budget), lowering taxes, paying down the debt, stopping corporate bailouts, bringing our troops home, restoring civil liberties, reducing the size and scope of government.

None of that has anything to do with the tea party.

Says you.

Says the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002534-503544.html

Uh yeah, how the hell does CBS News know how to poll a loose coalition they've deemed to be "Tea Partiers"? Only 28% of the people they polled have a favorable view of Ron Paul? People who like Bush but dislike Paul are neocons, not tea partiers.

Considering that there's not really a set definition of Tea Partier, it's not that simple; however, I would agree that a generic Tea Partier should be a fan of Ron Paul.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Inks, you seem to be being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. If you don't know whether what I said is true, why assume I must be wrong?

Then show me how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions.

The unions in this country are associated closely with the government, and especially with the current ruling party.

If you want to discuss particular unions, then I'll have that discussion, but surely you realize that a vague request to show you "how a majority of American unions are corporatist unions" is far too broad.

That was my point - that many labor unions have become supportive of the Democrat Party, and that that goes contrary to fascism.  You're using your assumption that the Obama administration is fascist to prove your claim that the labor unions are connected to a fascist government to prove that the Obama administration is a fascist administration.

Again, you seem to be working under the impression that fascist parties are inherently anti-union. That is false. Corporatist unions formed the basis upon which fascists like Mussolini structured their economies.

Because labor unions go against the principles of how a fascist economy works.

And what exactly do you mean by "corporatist union"?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Not necessarily. Obviously a union that agitated for anarcho-syndicalism or a similar ideology would have been an enemy of the fascist state. But unions themselves are not inherently anti-fascist. In fact, in some cases, they are an essential component.

Unions functioning with the purpose that they were originally intended are, however.

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Corporatism is based on the principle of promoting cooperation between labor and the capitalist class with state intervention. A union would be structured to accomplish this goal.

Look at the situation with the auto worker unions. GM has not been managed by free market principles, but by the demands of the unions and their close allies in the government. They are forced into cooperation by the force of the state, for the good of the state. In fact, if you recall, one of the reasons given for the auto bailouts was that we would need them for the sake of national defense...
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The UAW is a clear example of a union who has lost its way in truly protecting the interests of the worker, though.  But that's more of an effect of greed rather than government intrusion into the economy.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Unions functioning with the purpose that they were originally intended are, however.

Not all unions exist for the same purpose.

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I don't disagree, but that's a tangential point to the topic. Once again, it seems like you just don't want admit any agreement between us...

No - and this is what you're missing... you have some valid points to your argument.  But you take those valid points too far and interpret them as something that they are not.
The UAW is not a standard example of a union operating in America.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I would blame Obama door to door until he lost the election if this happened.

It's overly simplifying it to blame it on one person.

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That I'll agree with though.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I have all throughout this thread.

Obama is missing major tenets of fascism.  To summarize:

1. He is not a nationalist (at least not a nationalist by definition that fits with fascist nationalism).
2. While he has increased government intervention into the economy, he has not done so to a level that a genuinely fascist government would.
3. He certainly doesn't exhibit any of the racial/ethnic tenets of fascism.
4. He lacks the characteristics that a fascist would exhibit on social issues.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I have all throughout this thread.

Obama is missing major tenets of fascism.  To summarize:

1. He is not a nationalist (at least not a nationalist by definition that fits with fascist nationalism).
2. While he has increased government intervention into the economy, he has not done so to a level that a genuinely fascist government would.

Both of these issues have been dealt with repeatedly...

I beg to differ, but it's clear I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.  You're using a definition of nationalism that is legitimate in some circumstances, but is not a definition of nationalism that can be tied with fascism in a logical manner.

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There are none. Hitlerism is not synonymous with fascism.[/quote]
You mean Nazism?  And yes, most people agree that one of the tenets of fascism is tied to racism/ethnicism.

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Um, what? Be specific.
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Earlier you said he exhibits social issue characteristics of fascism, but never elaborated.  You're arguing he's a fascist... the burden of proof is on you here.  But to name a couple would be homophobia and a tendency to outlaw abortion.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

You mean Nazism?  And yes, most people agree that one of the tenets of fascism is tied to racism/ethnicism.

Except it isn't. Mussolini only implemented racial laws (and dumped his Jewish mistress) after getting involved with Hitler and the latter's personal issues. Other fascist states never had such racial or ethnic discrimination.

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Those aren't fundamental to fascism. Nazi Germany was big on abortion, as long as it was for non-Aryans.

The fundamental economic and social policies that I mentioned earlier are, as is the philosophy on government shared by Obama, Mussolini, and Hitler.

Nazi Germany was big on abortion for non-Aryans due to the tenet of racism.  For Aryans, it was mostly outlawed.

You never mentioned any social policies...  What social policies of Obama's are fascist?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

You cited healthcare as an example of his economic takever... not a social issue.