Biden infrastructure/tax increase megathread

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Duh

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Why exactly do we need tax increases for infrastructure when the economic expansion caused by new infrastructure should easily pay for the costs?

Because while new infrastructure expands GDP by more than it initially costs--but that additional wealth is not guaranteed to be recaptured by the government. So without recapturing it through new taxes, you will inevitably see expanded national debt, even if the debt-to-GDP ratio declines.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Looks like the spending priorities are out:

-$400 billion spending on in-home care
-$300 billion to promote advanced manufacturing
-$215 billion for research and development
-$174 billion for electric vehicles
-$115 billion for roads and bridges
-$111 billion for water infrastructure ($45 billion to deal with lead pipes)
-$100 billion for the electric grid
-$100 billion for broadband
-$85 billion for public transit
-$80 billion for Amtrak and freight rail
-$50 billion for infrastructure resilience from natural disasters
-$46 billion to electrify government vehicles
-$42 billion for ports and airports
-$16 billion to help fossil fuel workers transition
-$10 billion for a Civilian Climate Corps

Seems aight. I'd prefer to spend more on actual trains and roads and less on weird industrial policy, but it's solid. Also, 80-20 is dead which is huge for transit.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/schwartzbCNBC/status/1376618726620065794

Schumer himself has been pushing to bring back the deduction. Schumer and his fellow Democratic New York senator, Kirsten Gillibrand, introduced legislation in January that would eliminate the SALT cap.

“Sen. Schumer has long been a supporter of the SALT deduction and vehemently opposed the punitive Trump tax bill that severely undermined it. He is looking for the best way to repeal the SALT deduction cap,” a Schumer spokesperson said.

The so-called SALT deduction was capped at $10,000 by former President Donald Trump’s tax reform bill, which became law in late 2017. Taxpayers, particularly wealthy people, in New York and other high-tax states, including New Jersey and California, saw the biggest benefits when there was no cap. SALT deductions account for taxes on the state and local levels, including property and income tax.

The so-called SALT deduction was capped at $10,000 by former President Donald Trump’s tax reform bill, which became law in late 2017. Taxpayers, particularly wealthy people, in New York and other high-tax states, including New Jersey and California, saw the biggest benefits when there was no cap. SALT deductions account for taxes on the state and local levels, including property and income tax.

The cap, according to the Tax Foundation, “broadened the tax base by limiting the amount individuals could deduct in state and local taxes to $10,000. For high-income taxpayers, this cap increased federal taxable income.”

I hope, Biden will refuse.

Seems like a good idea to ditch the SALT cap

It is not.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/schwartzbCNBC/status/1376618726620065794

Schumer himself has been pushing to bring back the deduction. Schumer and his fellow Democratic New York senator, Kirsten Gillibrand, introduced legi
slation in January that would eliminate the SALT cap.

“Sen. Schumer has long been a supporter of the SALT deduction and vehemently opposed the punitive Trump tax bill that severely undermined it. He is looking for the best way to repeal the SALT deduction cap,” a Schumer spokesperson said.

The so-called SALT deduction was capped at $10,000 by former President Donald Trump’s tax reform bill, which became law in late 2017. Taxpayers, particularly wealthy people, in New York and other high-tax states, including New Jersey and California, saw the biggest benefits when there was no cap. SALT deductions account for taxes on the state and local levels, including property and income tax.

The so-called SALT deduction was capped at $10,000 by former President Donald Trump’s tax reform bill, which became law in late 2017. Taxpayers, particularly wealthy people, in New York and other high-tax states, including New Jersey and California, saw the biggest benefits when there was no cap. SALT deductions account for taxes on the state and local levels, including property and income tax.

The cap, according to the Tax Foundation, “broadened the tax base by limiting the amount individuals could deduct in state and local taxes to $10,000. For high-income taxpayers, this cap increased federal taxable income.”

I hope, Biden will refuse.

Seems like a good idea to ditch the SALT cap

It is not.

As Sprouts mentioned earlier there should probably be a marriage doubling for 20k for a married couple.

That assumes that state and local taxes should ever be deductible from federal income taxes--for anyone, ever. They should not.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Eliminate exclusionary zoning and harmful land use policies. For decades, exclusionary zoning laws – like minimum lot sizes, mandatory parking requirements, and prohibitions on multifamily housing – have inflated housing and construction costs and locked families out of areas with more opportunities. President Biden is calling on Congress to enact an innovative, new competitive grant program that awards flexible and attractive funding to jurisdictions that take concrete steps to eliminate such needless barriers to producing affordable housing.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/03/31/fact-sheet-the-american-jobs-plan/

Also, let's hear it for YIMBY Joe!

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Okay WaPo went through the line items better than me:



I mean, this is pretty good, but when I heard 1T infrastructure bill, I was thinking the top bar would be 1T and the rest of the bars would be 0.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/schwartzbCNBC/status/1376618726620065794

[snip]

I hope, Biden will refuse.

Wow, a Trump supporter who wants to keep punishing (non-Atlas) blue state middle-class home-owners for just existing? I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell ya!!

A lot more than just Trump supporters are against increasing the SALT deduction by more than $10,000..... like half of the progressives on this forum are against it. It's a handout to the upper middle class

I'm so pleasantly surprised that even neoliberal Blairite opposes it. Like I'll take my free money, but it doesn't even benefit middle-class homeowners let alone most upper middle-class homeowners.

I've been consistently talking about how mortgage interest and state and local taxes should NEVER be deductible for four years now. It's unbelievably regressive and unfair, and it's so frustrating to see Democrats be on the wrong side of this.

I'm consistent about my values. I support markets and reducing weird government incentives for everyone--and that extends to the liberal upper middle class. Opportunity hoarding is despicable.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

So I can’t say how disappointed I’am. The mass transit in this nation needs roughly $300B. (LA needs around 60; Boston 30; NYC around 50, Dallas 10; Austin 5, Chicago 15, DC 15)

Honestly, even that's a lowball figure. I once ran the numbers on what LA needs through 2060 and it's more like $110B--assuming we start controlling construction costs and take into account the billions already funded. Plus there are more than 7 cities in America. Remember, though, that state and local governments are expected to match federal funds.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

But what are the chances this actually passes? I'm kind of skeptical. Perhaps there will be a smaller package. Better than nothing for sure, but I hope Biden and Schumer stay firm and don't give up much.

Very high, but if it goes through reconciliation, I doubt the parliamentarian allows things like the RTW ban.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Based.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

This is a good bill.
We do need to improve our infrastructure and now is the right time especially coming out of Covid.

Afterwards, maybe we should be a bit more careful with our spending and see how this plus the stimulus plays out. We could focus on HR1 in the meantime.

This is not a good bill. The breakdown should be something like this:

Power grid ($300B)
Rural broadband ($100B)
High Speed Rail ($300B)
Mass Transit Rail ext/new ($400B)
Roads ($100B)
Bridges ($150B)
Hospitals ($50B)
Schools ($100B)
Airports ($200B)
Housing ($200B)
Manufacturing ($300B)
Energy/Climate: ($200B)
Waterways ($100B)

That’s nice, but the breakdown in Biden’s bill is fine as is.

I don't think it's wrong to challenge the breakdown and expect something better. I support this bill either way, but in general, I agree with MillenialMAModerate that some of the spending is a bit off. Hopefully it's gonna be revised.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah, except for the part where Biden wants it removed.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah, except for the part where Biden wants it removed.

I mean the votes are in the House to kill it, if it isn't included, maybe they agree to raise the cap to a level where only the truly wealthy are affected, like say $60k or so.

"true wealthy"

Face it dude, you're rich. Your parents deserve to pay more.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah but now he has the same position as Biden.

especially when the bill probably can’t pass the House without it.

Earmarks, baby.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

I mean the votes are in the House to kill it, if it isn't included, maybe they agree to raise the cap to a level where only the truly wealthy are affected, like say $70k or so.

Man, the following caclulations are probably somewhat misleading, but it is what it is. $4. Ok, may be $40.

https://www.crfb.org/blogs/repealing-salt-caps-would-cost-another-500-billion

Ehhh the scale is a lot less lopsided in places like NJ, since we have quite high property taxes. So this isn't really accurate in that sense.

https://www.njspotlight.com/2017/10/17-10-06-interactive-map-tracking-salt-deductions-across-the-state/

Particularly look at my home county (Morris)

Choices have consequences. Like, for example, choosing to own a home in an affluent Jersey burb. That doesn't mean the rest of the country should be in the business of subsidizing the upper middle class in certain states. Try convincing your local elected officials to allow you to deduct federal taxes from your state and local taxes instead.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Not to derail this thread too much, but this probably requires electing Republicans, who would defund our schools and our education quality would plummet, which is not ideal.

At risk of further derailment, that's why school funding should be centralized and doled out from the federal level--which would significantly reduce your state and local taxes. That said, it isn't how the system works. And since NJ has the best schools in the country, you deserve to pay more for what you get. It isn't fair to the rest of the country to ask us to subsidize your dream hoarding--which in Jersey, basically takes the form of moving to an exclusive neighborhood, paying an insane amount in property taxes for a de-facto elite private school, then writing off those taxes and asking the rest of the country to pick up the slack.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Not to derail this thread too much, but this probably requires electing Republicans, who would defund our schools and our education quality would plummet, which is not ideal.

At risk of further derailment, that's why school funding should be centralized and doled out from the federal level--which would significantly reduce your state and local taxes. That said, it isn't how the system works. And since NJ has the best schools in the country, you deserve to pay more for what you get. It isn't fair to the rest of the country to ask us to subsidize your dream hoarding--which in Jersey, basically takes the form of moving to an exclusive neighborhood, paying an insane amount in property taxes for a de-facto elite private school, then writing off those taxes and asking the rest of the country to pick up the slack.

I mean using the deduction isn't a NJ only phenomenon, per this source: https://taxfoundation.org/salt-deduction-benefit/, over 40% of people in NJ, CT, MD, and DC used the deduction and over 35% in CA, OR, MA, and MN. Those aren't negligible amounts, as for centralizing school funding, I guess that could work, but my guess is property taxes would remain high anyways to continue to fund a high level of education and make up whatever the federal government didn't fund.

We're talking about maybe $100-$200 for people earning in the six figures. That's nothing.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Not to derail this thread too much, but this probably requires electing Republicans, who would defund our schools and our education quality would plummet, which is not ideal.

At risk of further derailment, that's why school funding should be centralized and doled out from the federal level--which would significantly reduce your state and local taxes. That said, it isn't how the system works. And since NJ has the best schools in the country, you deserve to pay more for what you get. It isn't fair to the rest of the country to ask us to subsidize your dream hoarding--which in Jersey, basically takes the form of moving to an exclusive neighborhood, paying an insane amount in property taxes for a de-facto elite private school, then writing off those taxes and asking the rest of the country to pick up the slack.

I mean using the deduction isn't a NJ only phenomenon, per this source: https://taxfoundation.org/salt-deduction-benefit/, over 40% of people in NJ, CT, MD, and DC used the deduction and over 35% in CA, OR, MA, and MN. Those aren't negligible amounts, as for centralizing school funding, I guess that could work, but my guess is property taxes would remain high anyways to continue to fund a high level of education and make up whatever the federal government didn't fund.

We're talking about maybe $100-$200 for people earning in the six figures. That's nothing.

No offense, but did you see my map, people in parts of Newark claim an average of 11k, people in Paterson claim 10k, literally anyone richer than them is subject to the cap. The cap is absurdly low for New Jersey.

Yes I did. And I'm okay with that. This is Jersey's issue to fix, not America's. Congress isn't making policy just for Parsippany.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Not to derail this thread too much, but this probably requires electing Republicans, who would defund our schools and our education quality would plummet, which is not ideal.

At risk of further derailment, that's why school funding should be centralized and doled out from the federal level--which would significantly reduce your state and local taxes. That said, it isn't how the system works. And since NJ has the best schools in the country, you deserve to pay more for what you get. It isn't fair to the rest of the country to ask us to subsidize your dream hoarding--which in Jersey, basically takes the form of moving to an exclusive neighborhood, paying an insane amount in property taxes for a de-facto elite private school, then writing off those taxes and asking the rest of the country to pick up the slack.

I mean using the deduction isn't a NJ only phenomenon, per this source: https://taxfoundation.org/salt-deduction-benefit/, over 40% of people in NJ, CT, MD, and DC used the deduction and over 35% in CA, OR, MA, and MN. Those aren't negligible amounts, as for centralizing school funding, I guess that could work, but my guess is property taxes would remain high anyways to continue to fund a high level of education and make up whatever the federal government didn't fund.

We're talking about maybe $100-$200 for people earning in the six figures. That's nothing.

No offense, but did you see my map, people in parts of Newark claim an average of 11k, people in Paterson claim 10k, literally anyone richer than them is subject to the cap. The cap is absurdly low for New Jersey.

Yes I did. And I'm okay with that. This is Jersey's issue to fix, not America's. Congress isn't making policy just for Parsippany.

I mean I don't really think policy that is designed to hurt one particular state is good policy, and the SALT deduction cap unfairly hurts New Jersey and other similar states.

It only affects you more because you made specific choices with regards to taxing and spending. It's not like God declared Jersey must pay more in property taxes than the rest of the country. You decided to tax yourselves, so step up and pay.

That's basically the same as saying grocery bills unfairly hurt Whole Foods shoppers so they should be deductible from income taxes.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Not to derail this thread too much, but this probably requires electing Republicans, who would defund our schools and our education quality would plummet, which is not ideal.

At risk of further derailment, that's why school funding should be centralized and doled out from the federal level--which would significantly reduce your state and local taxes. That said, it isn't how the system works. And since NJ has the best schools in the country, you deserve to pay more for what you get. It isn't fair to the rest of the country to ask us to subsidize your dream hoarding--which in Jersey, basically takes the form of moving to an exclusive neighborhood, paying an insane amount in property taxes for a de-facto elite private school, then writing off those taxes and asking the rest of the country to pick up the slack.

I mean using the deduction isn't a NJ only phenomenon, per this source: https://taxfoundation.org/salt-deduction-benefit/, over 40% of people in NJ, CT, MD, and DC used the deduction and over 35% in CA, OR, MA, and MN. Those aren't negligible amounts, as for centralizing school funding, I guess that could work, but my guess is property taxes would remain high anyways to continue to fund a high level of education and make up whatever the federal government didn't fund.

We're talking about maybe $100-$200 for people earning in the six figures. That's nothing.

No offense, but did you see my map, people in parts of Newark claim an average of 11k, people in Paterson claim 10k, literally anyone richer than them is subject to the cap. The cap is absurdly low for New Jersey.

Yes I did. And I'm okay with that. This is Jersey's issue to fix, not America's. Congress isn't making policy just for Parsippany.

I mean I don't really think policy that is designed to hurt one particular state is good policy, and the SALT deduction cap unfairly hurts New Jersey and other similar states.

It only affects you more because you made specific choices with regards to taxing and spending. It's not like God declared Jersey must pay more in property taxes than the rest of the country. You decided to tax yourselves, so step up and pay.

We seem to be back to square one, what is the alternative? Let our schools go bankrupt?


That's basically the same as saying grocery bills unfairly hurt Whole Foods shoppers so they should be deductible from income taxes.

I don't really follow this reasoning.

New Jersey decided to have high state and local taxes. They decided it was worth it to pay more than the rest of this country. Nobody told you that you had to be pay that much, but you did anyway. Therefore, you can't describe the SALT cap as hurting you because the rest of the country decided you should pay everything you signed up for. The lower cap isn't hurting New Jersey--it just means the rest of the country decided it isn't fair to help you disproportionately. A truly fair system has a SALT deduction cap of $0. That's the benchmark against which fairness must be judged--not the status quo.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah but now he has the same position as Biden.

especially when the bill probably can’t pass the House without it.

Earmarks, baby.

Pelosi supports SALT relief; why would she use earmarks to kill it?  And why would Biden pick this as a hill to die on, regardless of his views on the issues?  Why would it matter to him that much?

"Relief" lmao. Because Biden can probably get everything he wants here. No adjustments to SALT and more infrastructure to buy off the suburbanites. Plus, I really don't see this playing well with most senators. Other than Manchin, I can absolutely see someone like Sanders throwing a fit over this with the go-ahead from Biden.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah but now he has the same position as Biden.

especially when the bill probably can’t pass the House without it.

Earmarks, baby.

Pelosi supports SALT relief; why would she use earmarks to kill it?  And why would Biden pick this as a hill to die on, regardless of his views on the issues?  Why would it matter to him that much?

"Relief" lmao. Because Biden can probably get everything he wants here. No adjustments to SALT and more infrastructure to buy off the suburbanites. Plus, I really don't see this playing well with most senators. Other than Manchin, I can absolutely see someone like Sanders throwing a fit over this with the go-ahead from Biden.

Neither Bernie nor Manchin nor Biden are gonna kill the bill over this.

Passing a floor amendment after the house sends the bill over != killing the bill.