January 6th legal proceedings and investigations megathread

[Torie]

Didn’t Lindsey call officials in GA trying to pressure them similar to Trump?

Or am I remembering wrong?

From the AJC article:

Graham separately called Raffensperger in the days following the November 2020 elections and allegedly questioned whether the secretary of state had the power to reject more legally cast absentee ballots to help Trump narrow his deficit in Georgia. Graham denied the allegation.

This won't be hard to prove either way.  No one's phone records are untouchable.

I don't think Graham is denying he made the calls, just their characterization as to their content. Just why out of state politicians think it appropriate to hit on those charged with counting the votes escapes me. Just why such calls are picked up by the vote counters also escapes me.

[Torie]

In case you were wondering, Meadows's witness tampering is what caused the Committee to rush Cassidy Hutchinson's public testimony.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/10/us/politics/cassidy-hutchinson-jan-6-testimony.html

[Torie]

What are you even talking about? He would have personally led way more people inside if he'd been there.

We have what actually happened in reality (people trespassed).

Why assume it goes in one direction vs the other? Either Trump is a coward or is the bravest American since General Washington -- pick one.

Who broke what laws and when does not turn on your speculation or the speculation of others as to what Trump would have done, and others would have done, if Trump had gone to the Capitol. Such speculation is an entirely entropic exercise, as is arguing about the plausibility of such speculation.

That said, it would from this particular quarter be a sweet and indeed most delicious irony if Trump gets tagged for a felony for what he did after Jan 6, rather than on or before, including without limitation witness tampering. That is what can happen to talented con artists who keep testing the legal limits of their unethical conduct. Any given solar flare can take them down.

[Torie]

The House Pubs plot investigating the investigators when they take power. I kind of hope that happens in one sense. It would be great for them to put Liz Cheney on the stand so I can savor her chewing them up and spitting them out. Jordan v. Cheney would be great theater.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/15/politics/house-republicans-investigation-plans-trump/index.html

Their having hearings to try to prove that the election was stolen after all would also be quite the clown car train wreck.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/15/politics/house-republicans-investigation-plans-trump/index.html

[Torie]

Andy McCarthy is pretty persuasive that the evidence is lacking to convict Trump of the crime of seditious conspiracy, but more than adequate to support an impeachment and conviction which would have given Congress to impose the penalty of banning Trump from further office.

The piece of evidence that is missing so far is that Trump was involved in planning the breaking and entering into the Capitol building, or was even aware of such plans, much less endorse such plans in advance.


https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/07/january-6-committees-bid-to-prove-trump-criminally-liable-for-violence-falls-short/

[Torie]

Andy McCarthy is pretty persuasive that the evidence is lacking to convict Trump of the crime of seditious conspiracy, but more than adequate to support an impeachment and conviction which would have given Congress to impose the penalty of banning Trump from further office.
The piece of evidence that is missing so far is that Trump was involved in planning the breaking and entering into the Capitol building, or was even aware of such plans, much less endorse such plans in advance.


https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/07/january-6-committees-bid-to-prove-trump-criminally-liable-for-violence-falls-short/

There's a lot of evidence that he was happy about it once it was happening, and a lot of circumstantial evidence that he wanted it to happen in advance. He put all the pieces in place for this to happen, and I don't think that's negated because he didn't explicitly call for a violent break in, or by his throwaway statement that he knew it would be peaceful.

McCarthy does think Trump can be prosecuted for aiding and abetting the intimidation of federal officials and for obstruction of congressional proceedings.

https://www.mediaite.com/podcasts/fox-news-legal-analyst-andrew-mccarthy-believes-trump-will-be-prosecuted/

I know of no evidence that Trump was aware in advance of a plan to break and enter into the Capitol to disrupt proceedings much less assist in developing it or approving it. His inaction or approval after the fact while certainly grounds for impeachment, conviction  and removal from office if still in office, is not a crime.

[Torie]

I know of no evidence that Trump was aware in advance of a plan to break and enter into the Capitol to disrupt proceedings much less assist in developing it or approving it. His inaction or approval after the fact while certainly grounds for impeachment, conviction  and removal from office if still in office, is not a crime.

Not that knew it would happen but that he hoped it would.

Even if that hope before the fact is conclusively proven, the act of hope is not a crime. It does of course constitute Exhibit 2,376 that Trump is a horrible person.


The thing that is so weird is just how this rogues' gallery thought it possible that without a court of law finding that the certified vote count in a state was wrong, and the loser was in fact the winner, that having the electors of the losing candidate cast the state's votes in the electoral college would stand in any court, or anywhere else, absent the military by force of arms converting this nation into a dictatorship. To use the word "deranged" to describe that mindset is in this context akin to a bowdlerized euphemism.

[Torie]

Even if that hope before the fact is conclusively proven, the act of hope is not a crime.

If he put all the pieces in place for it to happen (the armed crowd, national guard AWOL, initimidation of Pence, etc), and then hope it would elapse as it did, then yeah it is a crime, even if he didn't know it would happen or tell the Oath Keepers to do it.

But anyway, even if seditious conspiracy isn't charged, I'll take the other crimes he thinks Trump will be charged with.

I admire your perseverance, undaunted, no matter how high the hill is to climb. If you want a more realistic fantasy of Trump in jail in a jump suit, tax fraud and criminal grifting fraud are more promising avenues to have a wet dream about. Witness tampering is trending up as time goes by. One thing I am confident about is that Trump will not be indicted by the Feds absent an airtight case (Fulton County is another matter, but then some local DA's indict ham sandwiches when it serves their purposes). Trump beating a criminal rap in court would reanimate him as night does to Dracula.

[Torie]

I do so acknowledge.  Life is beautiful.

[Torie]

How about having a bunch of these agents testify under oath about who was doing what to whom when?

[Torie]

Agents who did not follow the protocol to not erase their messages and did erase their messages are going to be in deep trouble. That assumes they received the  protocol. This story I think has legs. It's really bad if there were mass erasures.

[Torie]

They’ve done a good job laying out Trump’s total inaction and even refusal to carry out his duties as president.

Him refusing the call from the Department of Defense seems like a big deal.

Can this be used as evidence of criminal negligence?

POTUS failing to perform the duties of his office is not a crime, but is obviously grounds for removal from office. And in a sense he was so removed for a bit there, when Schumer and McConnell were basically going over Trump's head to order the military to clear the Capitol immediately, an order the military said "yes sir" to. The chain of command was broken. I suspect if Pence had been willing to go along with it, the 25th amendment would have been invoked the next day, Trump's disingenuous Jan 7 speech to try to foreclose that to the contrary notwithstanding.

Trump's multiple takes of the "I have to do it even though I hate it to save me pathetic ass" Jan 7 speech on the teleprompter that he did not want to read was probably the most devastating part of the presentation to me. It made Trump, in contradistinction to the macho man image he revels in, look weak and pathetic and more like a sniveling coward. Trump in all of his social media "tweets" yesterday lashing out at everyone under the sun (of a genre that reminds me of a spoiled immature Atlas middle school poster), didn't go near that part of the committee's presentation. He had no choice except to ignore that, just like Fox News ignored the whole hearing - the twin partners in cowardice.

[Torie]

I would be amazed if the content of Trump's speech and his urging the crowd to go to the Capitol to protest can be the gravamen of a criminal act. Unless and until evidence appears that Trump was aware of and endorsed the breaking and entering into the Capitol, aside from jury tampering potentially, I just don't see a criminal case against Trump going very far.

What I do hear, is a lot of sloppy thinking by pundits on this matter. The punishment for Trump's failure to take action to end the riot and secure the Capitol was impeachment and conviction and removal from office for gross dereliction of duty. Frustrating to them all no doubt, and to me for that matter.

[Torie]

I would be amazed if the content of Trump's speech and his urging the crowd to go to the Capitol to protest can be the gravamen of a criminal act. Unless and until evidence appears that Trump was aware of and endorsed the breaking and entering into the Capitol, aside from jury tampering potentially, I just don't see a criminal case against Trump going very far.

What I do hear, is a lot of sloppy thinking by pundits on this matter. The punishment for Trump's failure to take action to end the riot and secure the Capitol was impeachment and conviction and removal from office for gross dereliction of duty. Frustrating to them all no doubt, and to me for that matter.

There is already abundant evidence that he foresaw the attack on the capitol, facilitated it (specifically demanding armed people be allowed to go there because "they're not here to hurt me"), and completely approved of it (his comments on Pence, his tweeting that the rioters shouldn't harm the Capitol Police because "They are on our side," and his doing absolutely nothing to stop the attack).

Actually what Trump wanted was for them to enter the area in front of his podium to fill the space up for the cameras. That was the context of that remark. The key missing element so far as we know is the lack of any evidence that he knew of the plot to breach the Capitol, much less plot and scheme before hand to facilitate it.* I predict that absent that element he will not be indicted. The fake elector thing doesn't make any sense either, inasmuch as everyone knew they were fake. Yes, I know, I sound like Trump's lawyer now. Pray for me.

*I do get the feeling from Bannon's radio show comments that he knew about the plot to attack. If he did (hopefully Garland's office squeezes him hard), and if he told Trump that, and "better" still, although mere knowledge with all the rest might be enough, they coordinated the scenario to get the thugs to the Capitol and maximize the crowd there as cover, then it is an entirely different story, and Trump goes to jail. But first you have to turn Bannon. Has his cell phone been seized by the way?

[Torie]

Why would knowing the fake electors were fake and trying to have them counted anyway be better for Trump? That seems like conspiracy to defraud the United States to me.

For criminal purposes, what a court would do is rule that it is obvious this slate would only have force and effect pursuant to a court ruling, without further appeal. There is factual fraud, and way out there legal fraud, and they are not the same thing.

Below is a good write up on executive privilege. I am no expert on that issue, but it seems to me that the privilege does not apply to criminal conduct, just as the attorney client privilege does not apply to aiding and abetting criminal conduct.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/28/politics/doj-court-trump-january-6-executive-privilege/index.html

[Torie]

It appears that the DOD was into erasing evidence as well. Honor and good judgement is just so yesterday.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/02/politics/defense-department-missing-january-6-texts/index.html

[Torie]

https://mobile.twitter.com/KFaulders/status/1554654882833043457

CNN has a well done summary of the implications of this subpoena and the state of play of Trump's legal position. I still think more than we now know needs to be out there to nail Trump, but it is certainly possible that there is more out there that would serve as the predicate for establishing his criminality.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/04/politics/trump-justice-department-probe-subpoenas/index.html

[Torie]

https://twitter.com/TamarHallerman/status/1559981283618557968

Six hours? Lame. Hillary testified eleven hours over a nothingburger.

That is about the right period of time if your answer to every question is to take the 5th. If you don't believe me, just ask Donald Trump.

And what does Lindsay Graham have to hide? Or Gov Kemp? Even if there is something to their claims they don't have to spill their guts, why not just do it anyway? Lindsay will tell you he is as pristine as fresh snow when it existed before pollution and global warming.  And he can prove that to the world by telling all.

[Torie]

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1562903179716886528

Sidney Powell is my favorite. Even better than Rudy, although Rudy is good. I hope I can listen to her "testimony" once again.

[Torie]

Trump sounds like an out of control Forumite eager to be banned ASAP for violating perhaps each and every bullet point in the TOS. It is as if he is a teenager on a joy ride doing it just because he can.

[Torie]

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1567975348234485763

I keep being tempted to put up a poll, as to who is the biggest attention whore, Trump of LG, but that would just give them more attention, so no.

[Torie]

Twitter is all ablab about why Trump is in DC, but this misses the real question: who flies from Florida to DC and lands at Dulles instead of Washington National?

How do you know that he is going to DC itself?

The guy who took the video was then driving ahead of the Trump motorcade, and then suddenly it disappeared he said. So the motorcade must have exited the highway. The guy speculates that: "Leyden said he thought that Trump was heading up his golf course. Trump has a golf course in Sterling, Virginia which is north of Dulles."

Trump did have a big suitcase and a smaller one. Maybe it had some papers in it. I mean, Trump may not have known that he would be tracked by this tracker hobbyist.


So the golf course, Walter Read, and the DOJ constitute the speculative trio at present. Come to think of it, the golf course is probably where Trump is spending the night, and was dropping off his things. He did look disheveled.



More speculations. The one I like best is that Trump learned that his golf palace in Sterling was being searched for more documents, so he rushed off the Bedminster golf course to Sterling to stop the steal.

https://www.salon.com/2022/09/12/something-weird-is-going-on-speculation-swirls-as-abruptly-flies-to-dc-still-in-golf-shoes_partner/

And there is now a sighting of him in a golf cart on the Sterling golf course.

https://www.heraldpalladium.com/news/national/trump-fbi/image_ef6231b9-2a8e-5f66-bf64-f771d2439506.html

[Torie]

I wonder if it is possible to have a second cell phone that backs up the first. I am not particularly worried that the FBI wants my phone at the moment, but phones do get lost, and what if I fall into the Hudson River with it? I need to inquire about that.

[Torie]

Claire McCaskill says she's heard the committee is furious with Riggleman, because they have kept tight control of the facts to this point with no leaks and Riggleman is out selling a book and said that.

Obviously. Wouldn't you? Money trumps honor yet again.

[Torie]

Thomas pled the 5th? Good grief. That is very sad. It really is. The tangled webs wove by Trump and his acolytes intending to deceive are casting a very wide net indeed, devouring and destroying reputations and the quality of life of so many. When and where will it end?