Israel-Gaza war

[Pericles]

Awful news, Israel and its people have my full sympathy right now. This alarmingly looks more serious than the previous recent wars there, I also fear what the consequences might be.

[Pericles]

Israel is clearly the more sympathetic side in this conflict. Supporting the rights of the Palestinian people shouldn't mean supporting genocidal terrorists.

[Pericles]

Israel is clearly the more sympathetic side in this conflict. Supporting the rights of the Palestinian people shouldn't mean supporting genocidal terrorists.

Well, Israel is already on track to exceed the civilian death toll from the initial Hamas attack. So I don’t see how they have moral high ground on that front.

It's not illegal for civilians to die from your military attacks. It is illegal to launch attacks without considering civilians, or worse, deliberately kill civilians as Hamas does. Taking civilian hostages is also a war crime. Israel has been more restrained-usually they attack military targets but in one of the most densely populated areas of the world and when Hamas conduct operations in civilian areas, there will be civilian casualties. If Israel were to just massacre the Gaza population then they'd be at Hamas's level but that isn't how they have behaved.

[Pericles]

Israel is clearly the more sympathetic side in this conflict. Supporting the rights of the Palestinian people shouldn't mean supporting genocidal terrorists.

Well, Israel is already on track to exceed the civilian death toll from the initial Hamas attack. So I don’t see how they have moral high ground on that front.

It's not illegal for civilians to die from your military attacks. It is illegal to launch attacks without considering civilians, or worse, deliberately kill civilians as Hamas does. Taking civilian hostages is also a war crime. Israel has been more restrained-usually they attack military targets but in one of the most densely populated areas of the world and when Hamas conduct operations in civilian areas, there will be civilian casualties. If Israel were to just massacre the Gaza population then they'd be at Hamas's level but that isn't how they have behaved.

Bibi is implying that might change.

If Israel commit lots of war crimes they lose the moral high ground, I hope they're not stupid enough to do that. My impression is that this time Israel will feel it needs to eliminate the threat from Hamas and not just contain it. Reoccupation of Gaza will be a huge mess for Israel but it looks unavoidable.

[Pericles]

I have a feeling that if there’s no pushback in the West Bank or any other front, Gaza would be quickly overwhelmed conventionally.

It's still a hellish urban environment for an attacker to fight through so not sure about 'quickly'.

[Pericles]

Collective punishment of entire populations-Israeli or Palestinians-is bad. FFS.

[Pericles]

Israel's experience with Gaza should serve as a counter-example to those who claim that withdrawing settlements from the West Bank (among other concessions) will lead to sustained peace between Israel and Palestine.  The past fifteen-plus years have convinced me that then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made a mistake with nothing to show for it, and that Israel will be better off reversing that decision, beginning with the elimination of Hamas (and other terrorist groups in Gaza) as an entity.  

This looks like the lesson that Israel will learn from this. They have tried learning to live with Hamas and it hasn't worked, so they are not going to try contain Hamas anymore but eliminate it.

However, it looks like this will take them further away from the lesson they should be learning. It is unsustainable to rely on minimizing the conflict with the Palestinians. The costs of making the concessions needed to end it are not ultimately higher than decades and centuries more of this. That said, there is not even an untrustworthy Palestinian leader like Arafat-who could a deal be made with even if the gap between the bottom lines of the two nations wasn't so wide?

[Pericles]

And I thought I was a pessimist.
I don't think Haley/Ryan really falls into the same bucket as Mattrose here. I'll be kind and say what he's proposing is...creative.
It's far from clear that it's really necessary.
It is true ethnic cleansing half a million is less bad than two million dying. But I'd hope we aren't at the point that such ideas are the main set of feasible options to proceed with.

Palestinians in Gaza have only themselves to blame if Israel is forced to resort to such measures to protect its own citizens. If Israel abandons the peace process with the Palestinians of the West Bank, they need only point to Gaza if anyone asks why.  

War crimes are never justifiable, firstly. Secondly, Gaza is a dictatorship.

[Pericles]

Yeah, the issue isn't that women are more deserving of release, it's that the feral sadists of Hamas target women and girls for a special kind of abuse. But it doesn't matter, because there will be no prisoner exchanges. The price Hamas demands for them is too high and can't be paid in the aftermath of a slaughter. The only way any of the hostages come home is via escape or liberation, and the latter will likely require a level of military strike that will make many people incredibly uncomfortable. But it doesn't matter. The rubicon has been crossed.

So you're saying that people need to throw the hostages under the bus just to strike Gaza hard

To be fair I can flip it around and say that negotiating and giving ground based on hostages will merely incentive Hamas to take more hostages costly more Israel lives on the long run.

If you want less Israeli lives to be lost in the long run, advocate a two state solution and a sustainable solution that would provide long term stability and peace.

A two state solution is the best outcome in the long term, but it isn't really relevant right now. I can't see how any country in Israel's situation could tolerate leaving Hamas in control of Gaza. Reoccupation will be a huge cost for Israel which is why they tried so hard to avoid it but what alternative is there now? None as I see it.

[Pericles]

Yeah, the issue isn't that women are more deserving of release, it's that the feral sadists of Hamas target women and girls for a special kind of abuse. But it doesn't matter, because there will be no prisoner exchanges. The price Hamas demands for them is too high and can't be paid in the aftermath of a slaughter. The only way any of the hostages come home is via escape or liberation, and the latter will likely require a level of military strike that will make many people incredibly uncomfortable. But it doesn't matter. The rubicon has been crossed.

So you're saying that people need to throw the hostages under the bus just to strike Gaza hard

To be fair I can flip it around and say that negotiating and giving ground based on hostages will merely incentive Hamas to take more hostages costly more Israel lives on the long run.

If you want less Israeli lives to be lost in the long run, advocate a two state solution and a sustainable solution that would provide long term stability and peace.

A two state solution is the best outcome in the long term, but it isn't really relevant right now. I can't see how any country in Israel's situation could tolerate leaving Hamas in control of Gaza. Reoccupation will be a huge cost for Israel which is why they tried so hard to avoid it but what alternative is there now? None as I see it.

It's not like you're trying a good or respectful solution here.

If anyone is keep saying it's a solution for the long term and it is irrelevant, it'll never happen. It's because nobody is trying or showing the intent.

And offering a peace deal with "a knife on the throat of someone else" isn't good diplomacy either. It has to be an acceptable and respectable offer.

My point is that your preferred solution to the conflict doesn't change what the necessary military response would be now. Israel isn't blameless but it's totally unreasonable to expect them to just take this kind of attack and not eliminate the threat so it doesn't happen again.

And of course it's a long term issue, there's not going to be a peace agreement in the next few days lol

[Pericles]

The two-state solution is dead and buried. At this point, settlements in the West Bank have grown so large and so numerous that any "evacuation" is unthinkable; Rashida Tlaib was right when she said such a move would be analogous to the Nakba.

A one-state solution is even more unrealistic though. There is simply no way Israelis and Palestinians could live in peace and form a functioning state, nor would it be fair to either.

[Pericles]

What this thread shows is that random online commentators are not serious people to discuss sensitive conflicts with.

[Pericles]

People don't understand the concept of human rights. Civilian populations don't have to 'deserve' (whatever tf that means) not to be ethnically cleansed and genocided-it's the most basic right that everyone should expect and have.

[Pericles]

A full siege of Gaza is unacceptable. We are in the fog of war, but the response needs to both consider civilian lives and be proportionate to any military objective. Even in these conditions, civilians should get humanitarian aid. Fighting against 'human animals' (inappropriate language imo) does not mean all morality and restraint goes out the window.

[Pericles]

Fighting a successful war and changing political leadership isn't always incompatible. I will just point out the famous example of the UK in 1940-Winston Churchill became Prime Minister literally on the day that Nazi Germany invaded four countries including France.

[Pericles]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

Pretty sure he meant eradicating Hamas, so I think so far Israel and it's supporters are just using careless wording.

[Pericles]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

Pretty sure he meant eradicating Hamas, so I think so far Israel and it's supporters are just using careless wording.

https://twitter.com/digby56/status/1711491477216678023

What makes more sense-he's talking about Hamas or that he dodges the question to advocate genocide and killing kids? It is very obvious from the context!

[Pericles]

Israel should be more careful with their language. I think he just means taking out Hamas but I can see how this would be interpreted as encouraging war crimes against civilians.

[Pericles]

Gallant can use as much harsh language as he likes, as he long as he doesn't actually commit atrocities in real life IMO. He proved to be a reasonable authority figure during the whole judicial reforms boondoggle, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

It's in Israel's interests not to come across as criminals, or to use rhetoric that increases resistance in Gaza and elsewhere. Obviously it's worse if he actually commits crimes, but getting the words right is part of his job.

[Pericles]

https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1712497344376111346?t=N4vwfa5nP9qv0lHs...

Was Asquith responsible for the German population during the blockade?

The blockade of Germany was a war crime, yes.

[Pericles]

Will Egypt really be able to control it's border if enough people are desperate enough to escape?

[Pericles]

Putin is actually right imo that both sides are cruel to civilians and breaching the law of armed conflict. Israel's war is justified while Hamas's is genocidal, but they should still try to minimise harm to civilians-no tragedy gives the attacker the moral right to be indiscriminate.

You do have to appreciate the brazen hypocrisy of him though.

[Pericles]

It's immoral to commit crimes against civilians even if they politically support a reprehensible enemy, but as has been pointed out-Hamas does not represent the whole Gaza population or even most of it.

[Pericles]

The whole "Palestine voted for Hamas" argument is really stupid because:

1. It was 17 years ago. Perhaps they'd feel differently if they got to vote again, but this was the last election Palestine had.

2. 75% of Palestinians were either too young to vote or had not yet been born when these elections occurred.

3. It's not like Hamas won some huge mandate, they only got 44% of the vote. A majority of Palestinians voted against Hamas.

So, we're looking at what, 11% of the population? Probably less when you factor in people who have passed away?

How many Gazans support Hamas and their tactics today? Unfortunately it is a lot higher than 11%.

Conflict on both sides radicalises the population and ultimately is a self-perpetuating cycle of misery.

[Pericles]

A lot of dirt is coming out on Netanyahu already, the inquiry into it will surely be absolutely brutal. How could he have had his head so deep in the sand to miss all the signs?