The event of October 7 and its aftermath can strain relationships.

[pppolitics]

I have a close friend and sometime girlfriend who is of Jewish heritage. She is a secular (not-observing) Jew. The events since Oct 7 have been very trying for both of us. She sometimes goes to Israel in the summer. That said, her heritage and Israel weren't something that we normally talked about and were non-issues.


After Oct 7, she was very angry and ghosted me, which is even worse when done in person. Anyway, we have recently started reconciling. She told me that she is horrified by the event of October 7, but even more horrified by what happened after. She told me that she doesn't want to know about anything that is going on in Israel or Gaza. She said that she needed to tune it all out to keep her sanity and advised me to do the same. "Let it go. You'll be much happier." Maybe she's right.

[pppolitics]

You'd think literally every Jew you come in contact with both on this forum and IRL being disgusted by your stances would cause some reflection, but apparently not

I don't blame every Jewish person for what the Israeli government is doing.

Likewise, I don't blame every Russian person for what the Russian government is doing.

She knows full well that I don't have kind words for the Israeli government.

[pppolitics]

You're presenting this like she ghosted you out of nowhere with no prompting, but that strains credulity. Maybe it's worth thinking more about what you said to her that led to that reaction. Seeing how a lot of leftists reacted to these events, it's hardly surprising that many Jewish people wouldn't feel comfortable with them for a while.

Believe me, I do think about it quite a bit.

She said that I had been consumed by anger and became hard and brittle.

[pppolitics]

As a Jew I don't think I would want a friend who fully supports a cause that wants me killed, but that's just my opinion.

You are misrepresenting my position.

I said that Palestinians who were displaced during Nakba should be compensated or allowed to return to Israel.

I didn't say anything about wanting anyone killed.

[pppolitics]

You're presenting this like she ghosted you out of nowhere with no prompting, but that strains credulity. Maybe it's worth thinking more about what you said to her that led to that reaction. Seeing how a lot of leftists reacted to these events, it's hardly surprising that many Jewish people wouldn't feel comfortable with them for a while.

Believe me, I do think about it quite a bit.

She said that I had been consumed by anger and became hard and brittle.

That's fair. That probably describes a lot of people on both sides of this issue right now. Just try to keep in mind the other side's perspective going forward. That's the best we can all do.

She told me that the same thing had happened in Israel and that so many people have been consumed by anger

...that they speak out in anger what they don't really mean.

She said that it is wrong to judge someone during his or her moment of weakness.

[pppolitics]

As a Jew I don't think I would want a friend who fully supports a cause that wants me killed, but that's just my opinion.

You are misrepresenting my position.

I said that Palestinians who were displaced during Nakba should be compensated or allowed to return to Israel.

I didn't say anything about wanting anyone killed.

I didn't say you personally want anyone killed. I said you support a cause that does so, and this is clearly true, because this is the position of every large 'pro-Palestine' organization with power and weapons in the Middle East (Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, et al), whether publicly or implicitly.

You live in a fantasy world where Palestinians will 'return' to the homes of their grandparents because of their intergenerational refugee status that only applies to them, but not Mizrahi Jews who were forced out of the Arab and Muslim world in the 1940s. That is your right to believe that. But you cannot force others to ignore the consequences of giving Palestinians in the region selective rights that Jews don't have.

People with your political ideology put next to zero effort to ensure that the rights of Jews in the Middle East are protected, even though their rights in the region are violated regularly, while reflexively believing every false fanatical claim about what Israel does ('Israel is committing apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide!!!').

I didn't say that "Palestinians will 'return' to the homes of their grandparents". I said that Palestinians displaced during Nakba (or their descendants) should be allowed to return to Israel if they choose. Whether they can find a place to live or not is another matter. Alternatively, they can give up their right to return for monetary compensation.

Also, I don't pretend that I am happy with the rights given in the Muslim world. I certainly am not.

[pppolitics]

As a Jew I don't think I would want a friend who fully supports a cause that wants me killed, but that's just my opinion.

You are misrepresenting my position.

I said that Palestinians who were displaced during Nakba should be compensated or allowed to return to Israel.

I didn't say anything about wanting anyone killed.

I didn't say you personally want anyone killed. I said you support a cause that does so, and this is clearly true, because this is the position of every large 'pro-Palestine' organization with power and weapons in the Middle East (Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, et al), whether publicly or implicitly.

You live in a fantasy world where Palestinians will 'return' to the homes of their grandparents because of their intergenerational refugee status that only applies to them, but not Mizrahi Jews who were forced out of the Arab and Muslim world in the 1940s. That is your right to believe that. But you cannot force others to ignore the consequences of giving Palestinians in the region selective rights that Jews don't have.

People with your political ideology put next to zero effort to ensure that the rights of Jews in the Middle East are protected, even though their rights in the region are violated regularly, while reflexively believing every false fanatical claim about what Israel does ('Israel is committing apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide!!!').

I didn't say that "Palestinians will 'return' to the homes of their grandparents". I said that they should be allowed to return to Israel if they choose. Whether they can find a place to live or not is another matter.

Also, I don't pretend that I am happy with the rights given in the Muslim world. I certainly am not.

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

Palestinians don’t have to give up their struggle for independence, they need to accept that they lost in 1948 and that they will not get that land back ever. If Palestinians limited their terrorism to West Bank settlers and soldiers only with the clear demand that “terrorism will only stop when you leave the West Bank” that would be one thing. But the Palestinian demand is that Israel stops existing. They need to accept that they lost in 1948 and this will not be corrected in any way. Imagine if the Algerians demanded not just that the French leave Algeria but that they also leave France. That is what Palestinians demand, and they use terrorism to pursue this fundamentally impossible goal.

Palestinians should be given Israeli citizenship as part of the amended Law of Return.

The whole point of Israel having a Jewish majority is so the country is a safe haven for Jews. If you let Palestinians become the majority, they will slaughter millions of Jews if Hamas’ behavior is any example so far. Now I know you don’t really care about what happens but a lot of people do.

Nakba is Israel's original sin.

It's time for Israel to atone by taking back the Palestinians.

If the Jewish "majority" is so afraid that the Palestinians would do to them what they are doing to the Palestinians right now, they should establish the rights of minorities right now in case they are ever in the minority.

In your previous posts you have mocked legitimate Jewish concerns about the Arabs' treatment of the Jewish population. The 'Jews should establish minority rights so they don't get killed by Palestinians' (Israel already has minority rights, discrimination based on ethnicity and religion is  already illegal in Israel, it certainly isn't illegal in the PA, Gaza and elsewhere in MENA).

Would you argue alternatively that Gaza, Lebanon, etc. should pass anti-discrimination law to protect Jews and Christians in order to avoid having their population being killed by Israel? Your right to live as a civilian depends on whether or not your government grants minority rights?

Part of the source of the conflict, which you support, is unequal refugee rights - Palestinians get intergenerational refugee status even when many of them are now citizens of Jordan, while Jews forced out of MENA don't get any refugee status. Israel has to be overwhelmed by Palestinians because they were displaced 75 years ago and grant them citizenship, while the Arab and Muslim world doesn't have to do the same thing with Jews displaced from MENA 75 years ago.

Letting millions of Palestinians return to Israel would simply result in the slaughter of Jews. This group is so radicalized and undoing this will take years. Plus, these are two different peoples with different ideas in terms of governing customs. A binational state makes zero sense.

The proper way to handle it is have the Palestinians recognize Israel in something resembling 1967 lines and in return Israel withdraws from the entire West Bank (minus the settlements right on the green line that are annexed to Israel and Israel gives comparable land in the northern or southern end of West Bank to the Palestinians). Israel should dismantle the settlements 20 miles inside the West Bank.

The point of Israel is to be a safe refuge for Jews and allowing millions of violent Arabs into its borders defeats the point.

Lastly, most societies around the world can NOT integrate different cultures and religions the way America has.

Most of them would immediately take cash compensation over returning to Israel.

Even if they want to return to Israel, how many of them can afford to buy or rent property in Israel?

They also have to get jobs and pay taxes.

[pppolitics]

You'd think literally every Jew you come in contact with both on this forum and IRL being disgusted by your stances would cause some reflection, but apparently not

You're presenting this like she ghosted you out of nowhere with no prompting, but that strains credulity. Maybe it's worth thinking more about what you said to her that led to that reaction. Seeing how a lot of leftists reacted to these events, it's hardly surprising that many Jewish people wouldn't feel comfortable with them for a while.

Believe me, I do think about it quite a bit.

She said that I had been consumed by anger and became hard and brittle.

That's fair. That probably describes a lot of people on both sides of this issue right now. Just try to keep in mind the other side's perspective going forward. That's the best we can all do.

On a side note, note the poster's actual posting on October 7: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=13804;sa=showPosts;start=575

It's nothing but his standard snippy one-liners and barbs attacking Israel, and not even any of the standard "Oh but I don't support Hamas" disclaimers anywhere. Some even seem to imply that the victims of the Hamas attacks, including children, were responsible for Israel's actions and occupation.

Not exactly helping his case well.

You are engaging in a bad-faith argument.

I have said multiple times that I didn't support Hamas.

Why would I, an atheist, support an Islam-militant group?

[pppolitics]

Let's say that we have a Palestinian who is a descendant of a Nakba survivor.

He mass-produced yogurt and sold them to supermarkets in the Middle East.

He can easily afford to buy a house in Tel Aviv and pay taxes.

Why shouldn't he be able to "return" to Israel?

[pppolitics]

"Am I the anti-Semite?

No, it's the Jews who are wrong."

Do you speak for every Jewish person?

[pppolitics]

Let's say that we have a Palestinian who is a descendant of a Nakba survivor.

He mass-produced yogurt and sold them to supermarkets in the Middle East.

He can easily afford to buy a house in Tel Aviv and pay taxes.

Why shouldn't he be able to "return" to Israel?

[pppolitics]

Let's say that we have a Palestinian who is a descendant of a Nakba survivor.

He mass-produced yogurt and sold them to supermarkets in the Middle East.

He can easily afford to buy a house in Tel Aviv and pay taxes.

Why shouldn't he be able to "return" to Israel?

Because he isn't actually returning to his homeland being only a descendant of a refugee.

If he can afford a house in Tel Aviv I suppose he can undergo a background check and complete the transaction in line with arms-length principles that all real estate transactions should have. The number of these type of cases would be very few and far between and could be handled on a case-by-case basis. But no, even if he bought the house, it just means he owns property in Tel Aviv and not necessarily Israeli citizenship.

The Law of Return gives any Jewish person the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship, but for some reason, a descendant of a refugee of Nakba can't relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship.

That's very discriminatory.

[pppolitics]

Let's say that we have a Palestinian who is a descendant of a Nakba survivor.

He mass-produced yogurt and sold them to supermarkets in the Middle East.

He can easily afford to buy a house in Tel Aviv and pay taxes.

Why shouldn't he be able to "return" to Israel?

Because he isn't actually returning to his homeland being only a descendant of a refugee.

If he can afford a house in Tel Aviv I suppose he can undergo a background check and complete the transaction in line with arms-length principles that all real estate transactions should have. The number of these type of cases would be very few and far between and could be handled on a case-by-case basis. But no, even if he bought the house, it just means he owns property in Tel Aviv and not necessarily Israeli citizenship.

The Law of Return gives any Jewish person the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship, but for some reason, a descendant of a refugee of Nakba can't relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship.

That's very discriminatory.

Countries discriminate all the time in terms of immigration policies. Yes, that's one way Israel allows the country to be a safe haven for Jews. Yes, Israel discriminates in terms of the people it wants to be citizens. I am sure when you look at other countries' immigration policies you might find something similar.

And believe it or not, the United States does not have to let everyone who shows up at the border become a citizen either. Sure, we should have comprehensive immigration reform and create a better system but the country is not obligated to offer citizenship to those people who ran across the border last week.

Okay, let's say that Israel did a background check and he's not a terrorist.

He has money. His yogurt business is, in fact, a multi-million dollar business.

He has a job. He can afford to buy property. He can pay taxes. He's not a terrorist.

What's the problem?

[pppolitics]

Let's say that we have a Palestinian who is a descendant of a Nakba survivor.

He mass-produced yogurt and sold them to supermarkets in the Middle East.

He can easily afford to buy a house in Tel Aviv and pay taxes.

Why shouldn't he be able to "return" to Israel?

Because he isn't actually returning to his homeland being only a descendant of a refugee.

If he can afford a house in Tel Aviv I suppose he can undergo a background check and complete the transaction in line with arms-length principles that all real estate transactions should have. The number of these type of cases would be very few and far between and could be handled on a case-by-case basis. But no, even if he bought the house, it just means he owns property in Tel Aviv and not necessarily Israeli citizenship.

The Law of Return gives any Jewish person the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship, but for some reason, a descendant of a refugee of Nakba can't relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship.

That's very discriminatory.

Countries discriminate all the time in terms of immigration policies. Yes, that's one way Israel allows the country to be a safe haven for Jews. Yes, Israel discriminates in terms of the people it wants to be citizens. I am sure when you look at other countries' immigration policies you might find something similar.

And believe it or not, the United States does not have to let everyone who shows up at the border become a citizen either. Sure, we should have comprehensive immigration reform and create a better system but the country is not obligated to offer citizenship to those people who ran across the border last week.

Okay, let's say that Israel did a background check and he's not a terrorist.

He has money. His yogurt business is, in fact, a multi-million dollar business.

He has a job. He can afford to buy property. He can pay taxes. He's not a terrorist.

What's the problem?

Sure, why not. But this doesn't solve the Israel/Palestine issue at all. It just creates an opportunity for maybe hundreds to a couple thousand wealthier Palestinians who are unrepresentative of the larger community.

My point is the excuses used to deny the return of Palestinians who were forced displaced during Nakba and their dependants are hogwash.

[pppolitics]

Let's say that we have a Palestinian who is a descendant of a Nakba survivor.

He mass-produced yogurt and sold them to supermarkets in the Middle East.

He can easily afford to buy a house in Tel Aviv and pay taxes.

Why shouldn't he be able to "return" to Israel?

Because he isn't actually returning to his homeland being only a descendant of a refugee.

If he can afford a house in Tel Aviv I suppose he can undergo a background check and complete the transaction in line with arms-length principles that all real estate transactions should have. The number of these type of cases would be very few and far between and could be handled on a case-by-case basis. But no, even if he bought the house, it just means he owns property in Tel Aviv and not necessarily Israeli citizenship.

The Law of Return gives any Jewish person the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship, but for some reason, a descendant of a refugee of Nakba can't relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship.

That's very discriminatory.

Countries discriminate all the time in terms of immigration policies. Yes, that's one way Israel allows the country to be a safe haven for Jews. Yes, Israel discriminates in terms of the people it wants to be citizens. I am sure when you look at other countries' immigration policies you might find something similar.

And believe it or not, the United States does not have to let everyone who shows up at the border become a citizen either. Sure, we should have comprehensive immigration reform and create a better system but the country is not obligated to offer citizenship to those people who ran across the border last week.

Okay, let's say that Israel did a background check and he's not a terrorist.

He has money. His yogurt business is, in fact, a multi-million dollar business.

He has a job. He can afford to buy property. He can pay taxes. He's not a terrorist.

What's the problem?

Sure, why not. But this doesn't solve the Israel/Palestine issue at all. It just creates an opportunity for maybe hundreds to a couple thousand wealthier Palestinians who are unrepresentative of the larger community.

My point is the excuses used to deny the return of Palestinians who were forced displaced during Nakba and their dependants are hogwash.

They can live in a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. That way their fantasies can stick to Twitter and TikTok instead of actually exterminating Jews.

There is no "Palestinian state".

As I have just demonstrated above, Israel doesn't allow Palestinians to return to Israel because of politics, not security.

[pppolitics]

Yeah, there's no way Israel or any Jews could have any security concerns after watching what happened on 10/7.

Please spare me the bs and re-read your initial post in the thread, self-reflect.

You should self-reflect.

I am not so angry anymore, but I am not going to suddenly approve of Israel's inhumane policies.

Clearly, putting the Palestinians behind a wall and pretending that they don't exist doesn't help Israel's security.

[pppolitics]

This is something that was just mentioned to me.

She said that what we (Americans) see on television is not what Israelis see on television.

Palestinian suffering is rarely shown on TV.

Israeli television doesn't show Palestinian babies being dug out of the rubble, Palestinians in body bags, or anything like that.

Palestinians themselves are rarely ever shown.