What undermimes marriage more?

[Ebowed]

Marraige is a human institution.

Yes, between a man and a woman, only.

Why?

[Ebowed]

Go read Leviticus or Romans some time.

Leviticus 18

5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.

6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.

13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.

14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.

16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.

21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

Good stuff.

[Ebowed]

Sorry, I forgot the punishments.

Leviticus 20

 9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

 10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

 11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

 15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

 16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.

 18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.

 19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.

 20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.

 21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

[Ebowed]

Go tell it to those who follow the Jewish faith. They are bound by those dead laws. It has no relevance to a Christian.

Then why did you mention Leviticus as a reason gay marriage is banned in the Bible if it has no relevance to Christianity?

[Ebowed]

Oh, you already know where its mentioned again in the bible EBOWED. Go look it up yourself and quit playing idiot.

No, tell me why you mentioned Leviticus if it wasn't relevant.

But fine, here's Romans 1:8-32.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[Ebowed]

However, banning gay marriage will help society to understand the sanctity of marriage.

Or better yet, it will help get votes for the GOP in a congressional election.

[Ebowed]

I do not believe that anything that does not directly and intentionally harm another person is bad.

I disagree.  Something can be immoral even if it is a private act that has nothing to do with anyone other than the person or people involved; i.e. prostitution or consensual incest.

[Ebowed]

I do not believe that anything that does not directly and intentionally harm another person is bad.

I disagree.  Something can be immoral even if it is a private act that has nothing to do with anyone other than the person or people involved; i.e. prostitution or consensual incest.

Why?

Because of the direct monetary exchange that occurs within prostitution, I think it's dehumanizing and generally cheapens sex.  It's also been historically associated with violence towards women and greedy, controlling pimps, although this is irrelevant to the morality of prostitution itself.  (Indeed, homosexuality has been historically associated with all sorts of terrible things, often fabricated or totally unrelated, but I don't have any moral qualms with homosexuals.)  Either way, prostitution should be considered a moral gray area at best, although I would go further as to say it is immoral and dehumanizing.

As for (consensual) incest, I can't really explain why I find it immoral.  Maybe I'm too traditionalist on the issue, but something just doesn't seem right about it.

[Ebowed]

Is there any victim to cheapening sex, though?  While prostitution overall may "cheapen sex," does the individual act?  I know where you're coming from, but I just don't see the societal harm.

On the second part, yeah, it's kind of "eww."  There are psychological reasons why it's wrong.  But there are psychological reasons why most any relationship has its flaws.  I've never been a big fan of traditionalist thinking, but it even gives me the willies a bit.  Still, immoral?  Nah.

Well, I don't think there has to be an overall negative effect on society in order for something to be immoral.  i.e. Adultery only harms the person who is being cheated on and maybe the people committing the adultery, but I would still say it's immoral.  Also, to play devil's advocate for a moment, one could say that if sex is continuously cheapened it will eventually cause societal harm.  I don't actually agree with this logic, but it's worth considering.

As I said, I can't really explain why I find incest immoral.  I suppose the psychological reasons could be justification, but I'm not particularly interested in deciding who can and can't get into a relationship based on potential psychological problems that could arise.  Legally speaking, it makes sense to ban incest because of the biological risks associated with inbred pregnancies.

[Ebowed]

Good points.  But first, I think that the status of how "cheap" sex currently is isn't really all that relevant to whether or not prostitution is immoral.  It doesn't really matter whether people are having casual sex on the streets or if people only have it to rear children; prostitution is an act that minimizes/cheapens sex either way.  There's also the fact that it's dehumanizing and makes people out to be nothing more than objects, although one could (with significantly less grounding, however) use the same argument against masturbation so I won't get into that.

As for relationships between first cousins, it is significantly less dangerous than closer incest.  There are still a few reasons we should be wary of it, however (Supersoulty had a good post on this subject fairly recently, I'll look for it later).  First cousin marriages are also actually legal in a significant minority of states as well as most of Europe.