Egypt opens its border with Palestine, breaking the siege of Gaza

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now the Muslim Brotherhood doesnt have to continue to rely on tunnels to smuggle rockets into Gaza.

Note to Obama: Egypt is going over a cliff, and you encouraged it.

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You know, that quote could almost be a parody of a Fox News retard knowing nothing about the topic he's talking about whatsoever. I suggest you'd add another layer of ignorance in there, and you're completely there. (Maybe, I don't know, 'the Iran-sponsored Muslim Brotherhood')

i don't watch FoxNews - heck I dont even have a chance to watch TV anymore...

But, what part of my statement are you disagreeing with?:

1)   MB is arming Hamas
2)   MB has smuggled arms to Hamas
3)   MB has used tunnels under the Gaza/Egyptian border to smuggle arms to Hamas
4)   The opening of the Gaza/Egyptian border will help facilitate MB in its arming of Hamas

Or, perhaps you are arguing my unspoken point that Hamas and the MB are in bed together – if not one and the same.

Which is it?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Your continueing mix-up of Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood is embarassing to read.

I'm not mixing them up at all.  Again, I'll restate the question to you:

what part of my statement are you disagreeing with?:

1)   MB is arming Hamas
2)   MB has smuggled arms to Hamas
3)   MB has used tunnels under the Gaza/Egyptian border to smuggle arms to Hamas
4)   The opening of the Gaza/Egyptian border will help facilitate MB in its arming of Hamas

Or, perhaps you are arguing my unspoken point that Hamas and the MB are in bed together – if not one and the same.

Which is it?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Note to Obama: Egypt is going over a cliff, and you encouraged it.

Yes, Obama should have sent the army to save Mubarak.

It absolutely galls me that some Zionists basically make the argument that the American military ought to be deployed when and where Israel needs it. And these people claim to be 'patriots' all the while making American foreign policy subservient to another national power.

dude, stop allowing your pecker to be waxed by a strawman, no one said anything about involving the US in Egypt.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Note to Obama: Egypt is going over a cliff, and you encouraged it.

Yes, Obama should have sent the army to save Mubarak.

It absolutely galls me that some Zionists basically make the argument that the American military ought to be deployed when and where Israel needs it. And these people claim to be 'patriots' all the while making American foreign policy subservient to another national power.

dude, stop allowing your pecker to be waxed by a strawman, no one said anything about involving the US in Egypt.

That's the implication: that we can right this 'wrong' if only we reverse course, and then charge full steam ahead into either bullying the Egyptians to close the border again or doing it ourselves. And I think you'll find the American people will kick you in the ass for so much as suggesting it.

oh, so it wasnt a strawman, rather was you stroking yourself.....again I never suggested we bully Egypt or get militarily involved.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Note to Obama: Egypt is going over a cliff, and you encouraged it.

Yes, Obama should have sent the army to save Mubarak.

It absolutely galls me that some Zionists basically make the argument that the American military ought to be deployed when and where Israel needs it. And these people claim to be 'patriots' all the while making American foreign policy subservient to another national power.

dude, stop allowing your pecker to be waxed by a strawman, no one said anything about involving the US in Egypt.

That's the implication: that we can right this 'wrong' if only we reverse course, and then charge full steam ahead into either bullying the Egyptians to close the border again or doing it ourselves. And I think you'll find the American people will kick you in the ass for so much as suggesting it.

oh, so it wasnt a strawman, rather was you stroking yourself.....again I never suggested we bully Egypt or get militarily involved.

If you don't like the implications, you ought to be better at picking your words. What would you have us do, then? Continue the current, ludicrous levels of aid we send Israel?

dude, I never came anywhere close to saying that we should involve ourselves in Egypt or along the Gaza-Egyptian boarder...nor do I believe we should.  It was all just a fig newton of your imagination.

and if we'd would stop arming and aiding Israel's enemies, we might not have to aid Israel at all.

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I'm not sure if you knew this, but Gaddafi was "Israel's enemy", not the rebels now fighting against him (presumably that's what you're referring to; it's very difficult for me to follow whatever line of 'reason' you're using).

1) google the armed forces of the countries of the ME.  see all those American planes and tanks in the hands of the Muslims?  that's what I was referring to when I said we should stop arming Israel's enemies, then maybe we wouldnt need to aid Israel at all.

2) Gaddafi is a murderous thug, but dont think whatever replaces him is going to champion human rights.

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Frankly, I think we could get a better deal selling a few tanks to the Palestinians to even up the score. I'm not saying we should, but it beats sticking our necks out for a country that only exists because of the United Nations.

  why dont you go join the Palestinian army and fight against those darn Jews.  go show us a fighting frenchman can do

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1) google the armed forces of the countries of the ME.  see all those American planes and tanks in the hands of the Muslims?  that's what I was referring to when I said we should stop arming Israel's enemies, then maybe we wouldnt need to aid Israel at all.

So every Arab-majority country in the Middle East is an enemy of Israel?

(nearly) every Muslim populous is.  we are short-sighted and never see the possibility that there could be Muslim revolutions in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt...it's only the dictators-kings that have stiffled the will of the Muslim street to destroy Israel...and that these very same planes and tanks could be used by jihadists.

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And we shouldn't make business deals advantageous to our interests with them because of that? We should distort the market, harm international trade, and all for Israel.
Okay then...

seriously, dude, you need to stop trying to support your weak argument by putting words into another person's mouth.

do a search on my posts regarding the preaching of freedom of religion and who we dont have to choose between two bad choices when we could instead choose to preach the acceptance of certain unalienable rights was a prerequisite of our support....I dont feel like explaining it all over again to a new crowd

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Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

maybe they should have thought about that when both Abbas and Arafat have rejected deals that shared Jerusalem and gave Israel only three percent of the West Bank in return of recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity.

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1967 they were not satisified with the '67 lines.  

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1948 they were not satisified with the '48 lines.  

War has consequences, especially when lose all of them in the name of refusing Israel the right to exist.  LOL!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

maybe they should have thought about that when both Abbas and Arafat have rejected deals that shared Jerusalem and gave Israel only three percent of the West Bank in return of recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity.

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1967 they were not satisified with the '67 lines.  

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1948 they were not satisified with the '48 lines.

You say "they". Who are "they"? The Palestinian people in the conglomerate? No such thing exists. The individuals, the youth of Palestine, who are going out and fighting and dying were not present at Camp David, nor there at the partitioning. I refuse to morally condemn an individual for something their ancestors or their 'representatives' did.

who do you think Arafat was afraid of at Camp David:  Clinton, the Israeli PM, or the Muslim street back in the ME?  Arafat wasnt stupid, he knew that if he accepted Israel's right to exist that he would be killed by Muslims.  Which is why Abbas will not publically accept Israel's right to exist.  He'd be signing his own death warrant.

who, exactly, do you think you're fooling?

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War has consequences, especially when lose all of them in the name of refusing Israel the right to exist.  LOL!

I wonder if you will say the same thing if Egypt or some other Arab nation defeats Israel.

well, looks like we're going to get a chance to see if Egypt has was it takes in the coming years.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

who do you think Arafat was afraid of at Camp David:  Clinton, the Israeli PM, or the Muslim street back in the ME?  Arafat wasnt stupid, he knew that if he accepted Israel's right to exist that he would be killed by Muslims.  Which is why Abbas will not publically accept Israel's right to exist.  He'd be signing his own death warrant.

who, exactly, do you think you're fooling?

If Arafat were under danger then of being killed by his own people, the PLO would have been completely purged now that it's been revealed to be a corrupt, self-serving interest group within the Palestinian social structure. But it hasn't. There's a lot of popular outrage against it, but the individual politicians are perfectly safe. You want to paint a picture of the Palestinians as murder-driven brutes which, quite simply, has no correlation to reality.

well, if Abbas isnt afraid of the Muslim street, then why doesnt he put out a statement in Arabic stating Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity?

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well, if Abbas isnt afraid of the Muslim street, then why doesnt he put out a statement in Arabic stating Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity?

Why would he? He's gotten fat manipulating the passions and prejudices of both sides, just as Arafat did. These are political leaders, after all....there's no incentive for him or the PLO or any member of the Palestinian establishment to recognize Israel as long as they can use it to their own advantage. And if your retort is "well, the Palestinians ought to get better leaders", then good luck, as that does nothing to remove the institutional pressure not to recognize Israel for one's own gain.

then put the PA aside...do you think the majority of Palestinians believe Israel has a right to exist?!  heck, even a majority of Arab-Israelis dont believe that:

"It said that 62.5 percent of the Ara-Israeli respondents saw the Jews as 'foreign settlers who do not fit into the region and will eventually leave, when the land will return to the Palestinians.'"

http://www.france24.com/en/20110522-poll-shows-hardening-jewish-arab-attitudes#

so why would Israel negotiate with either the PA or the Palestinian street when neither will recognize Israel's right to exist?!

sorry to introduce you to reality

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so why would Israel negotiate with either the PA or the Palestinian street when neither will recognize Israel's right to exist?!

sorry to introduce you to reality

Oh, I'm certain a vast majority of Palestinians don't believe that Israel has a right to exist (and I absolutely agree with them insofar as no state has a 'right' to exist). I don't think, however, that if they were privy to the political machinations behind the scenes, that they'd want to commit genocide against the Israelis, or anything of the sort. In fact, if both sides were privy to how their leaders manipulate them and stir their passions only to later stall out, I'm pretty sure they'd both work together to eliminate their political classes and then work out their problems later. But that's an idealistic pipe dream.

Netanyahu is notorious for playing games. He just played one in Congress today, and it worked for him. Arafat and Abbas both play games. And by 'games', I mean they preserve the illusion of progress or revanchism while carefully managing events to remain tense - and unmoving.

so, the conflict doesnt represent the true feelings of the citizens on either side?!

you are below the logical hard deck for this hop, and I am calling no joy...see you back on deck

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as everyone can see from this argument, the only thing that is going to result is war, war, and more war.  and the more we attempt to push these opposing sides together, the faster the next war is going to manifest itself.

sometimes it's simply better to allow sleeping dogs to simply sleep (and wounded dogs to die)...yeah, they're going to wake up eventually and bite your ass, but why hasten that moment.  enjoy peace while you have it, because there is always going to come a time for war

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do you think the majority of Palestinians believe Israel has a right to exist?!  heck, even a majority of Arab-Israelis dont believe that:

Why wouldn't you try making this symmetric. Many, if not most Israelis don't even believe Palestinians exist: they think it's an anti-semitic plot. And the don't make any exception for Christian Palestinians - I am surprised you care so little for your own brethren in Jesus )))

I think I covered this topic already in the last day or two:

Yeah, actually jmfcst, why do you hate your Christian brethren in Palestina?

it's not that I hate them, rather it is that they are misguided and are taking a stand against God's promises to the Jewish nation, which are IRREVOCABLE (Rom 11:29).  And I am not willing to disobey God and bring judgment on myself simply to help these ME Christians destroy themselves.

Gen 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

I view them no differently that any other misguided Christian.

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on a side note:  have I offended you in some way, you seem kinda tense?

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I think I covered this topic already in the last day or two:

Do you at least understand that those of us who do not believe that Yahweh ever made that promise - those of us who do not believe that Yahweh ever existed - are not inclined to accept that perspective when approaching a foreign policy question rising before us twenty centuries and three millenia after those passages were respectively written?

Also, to play on your terms, I'll note that Yahweh punished Israel constantly in the New Testament. Why should we assume they haven't merited His wrath, should He exist?

the question was regarding why I dont favor Palestinian Christians over Israel in the land dispute....so I explained that I believe those Christians are on the wrong side of scripture in this dispute...but, with you, I've been making a secular argument for the support of Israel...so let's not you and I mingle the two arguments

(though I do find it odd that you were attempting to categorize my Godhead beliefs when it sounds like you're basically saying you're a nonbeliever...that would be like me attempting to classify a cricket player when I'm not even a fan of the game.)

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(though I do find it odd that you were attempting to categorize my Godhead beliefs when it sounds like you're basically saying you're a nonbeliever...that would be like me attempting to classify a cricket player when I'm not even a fan of the game.)

Do you realize, that by failing to delete the name in quoting Liberte, you've committed, from an orthodox Jewish standpoint, a crime, for which there can be only one punishment: death by stoning? The learned rabbis would grant it, that under current circumstances it might be impractical to execute you, but they are in agreement that you should be?

why would I care?

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Though, of course, the very fact that you celebrate Sabbath, while being Christian, is grounds for the same punishment.

i dont observe the 7th day sabbath, unless i am witnessing to someone who does, as I did with my wife over the 18 month period I was dating her

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Poor jmfsct. From the standpoint of most Christians, he is a sworn enemy of Christianity. From the standpoint of pretty much all Jews, he is a sworn enemy of the Jews. And he is trying so hard to be nice to both ))

well, that's no surprise since for about 1500 years beginning from around 325 AD, I would have been executed as a heretic by both Catholics and Protestants (at least by John Calvin) alike.  But who is the bigger heretic, someone who disagrees with a single word of a man made creed, or someone who believes Christ gave them the authority to kill those who didnt agree with every single word of a man made creed?

and you might was well stop trying to shake me up, I'm shake proof.  and I have been dragged before panel of religious people who thought I was undermining their unique authority to interpret scripture....so, there isnt an argument that is going to catch me off guard or toss me to and fro.  but, I am always willing to listen.

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Again, I ask:

Also, to play on your terms, I'll note that Yahweh punished Israel constantly in the Old Testament. Why should we assume they haven't merited His wrath, should He exist?

dude, if you've ever read scripture, you would know that every nation God has sent against Israel to punish her, God has later destroyed that same nation....so, from a religious standpoint, why would I want to raise a hand against God's anointed, even if they are being disobedient?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

i dont observe the 7th day sabbath, unless i am witnessing to someone who does, as I did with my wife over the 18 month period I was dating her

Ah, ok. As long as you work on Sundays you are fine ) But then, those 18 months....

Sunday?  first, my girlfriend was observing the Jewish Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday....and I've never considered Sunday a Sabbath..

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 tough. Still, it pales in comparison with the obvious fact that you didn't delete the name ))))

  why would I care, what's your point?

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and you might was well stop trying to shake me up, I'm shake proof.  

My dear jmfsct ) I am not trying to shake you up - I am just mightily amused ))

Though, of course, it is a useful point to make that from the Israeli standpoint you are a tribal enemy, but a useful fool at the same time. Just so that you understand Israelis better, when you encounter them.

I know, you don't care - you do this because of your Faith. Since I am a non-believer, I am quite ok w/ that, as you can imagine )))))) In fact, if anything, I prefer your godly selflessness to Israeli tribalism. But the way you go about this is still mightily amusing ))))

well, you have the luxury to be amused, because it was people like me whose Faith taught them to allow others to believe what they wished to believe, and it was people like me who learned the lessons which history taught regarding the dangers of state run religion, which formulated the constitution of this country and brought you the religous freedom not to believe.

So, you should pay attention to history and recognize religious tyranny when you see it, and make sure that you dont embrace it by throwing your support behind those who are willing to kill others simply because they refuse to convert....because religious tyranny does NOT recognize borders and will attempt to spread its tyranny to the whole world.

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Come on, no one really goes around advocating the death penalty for a religious crime anymore, much less a goy from a goy country which is just ludicrous and something that no one ever did.

Ag isn't lying. While the punishments under Orthodox Judaism are obviously not meted out any longer, they remain on the books. And if civilization were to fall back to the Dark Ages, they'd probably come back into practice.

are you saying the Jews would force nonJews to follow Judaism?  that was never the case throughout Israel's biblically recorded history.  In fact, the Muslims and Christians living in Israeli today are the most free Muslims and Christians in all the middle east.

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danny, certain people hate Israel simply because it is God's chosen nation.  dont try to make sense of their hatred, they will always have some excuse.  the only way you could appease them is if you dropped dead.

there are only two major countries in this world that understand the dangers of Islam, and those are Israel and India.  America also did at one time, but America has become too politically correct to be able to see straight.

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are you saying the Jews would force nonJews to follow Judaism?  that was never the case throughout Israel's biblically recorded history.

Well, no. They simply purged the lands they conquered.

in any case the purge was limited in geographical scope, it did not and does not threaten the whole world.

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I'm saying that Orthodox Jews would probably resume executing other Orthodox Jews for religious sin.

 without a temple?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Of course as long as they don't change the bible the laws will remain on the books. But that's not very meaningful. What is meaningful is what people say should be done in practice  and how they act, people can interpret the books any way they like.

Thank you! You provide a wonderful illustration to our chat w/ jmfsct )))

those laws are only for the promised land, they do not threaten anyone outside of that land.  And those laws arent even en force.

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The problem is: he takes (his own) Law deadly seriously. When Israel wins, the rapture will happen and all Jews will convert (or perish).

I can see we are going to have to go through this about 200 more times:

1) the rapture does NOT occur when Israel wins, rather it occurs when Israel is gravely wounded by other nations and is about to wiped from the face of the earth = "the time of Jacob's troubles".

2) the destruction of the nonChristians is NOT focused solely on Jews, rather anyone, Jewish or Gentile, that doesnt believe in Christ will be condemned.  But right before Christ returns, he's going to allow at least 144k Jews to realize their error and come to Christ.

But that is not an issue between me and Jews for today.  As for my actions, I will continue to bless Israel and allow God to deal with Israel.  I am NOT God's agent of wrath against Israel.  And anyone that attempts to harm Israel will be destoyed.

So, it doesnt matter what my religious differences are with the Jews, Israel is God's anointed, therefore I do not dare raise a hand against them.  Nor are they any threat to me, since I am not attempting to live in their God-given land.