Israel-Gaza war

[Zinneke]

What the hell was Hamas hoping to gain from this?

Maintaining their sponsors' support.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710633622338781436?s=20

We're just getting started. Let's see all those people dancing with our civilians' corpses in the street by Wednesday.

I don't think boasting about dead civilians, even if said civilians are misguided individuals, is constructive either way is it?

Israel has a "right " to reoccupy the Gaza Strip and remove elements that attacked it from there but not to indiscriminately kill non-armed people.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710633622338781436?s=20

We're just getting started. Let's see all those people dancing with our civilians' corpses in the street by Wednesday.

I don't think boasting about dead civilians, even if said civilians are misguided individuals, is constructive either way is it?

Israel has a "right " to reoccupy the Gaza Strip and remove elements that attacked it from there but not to indiscriminately kill non-armed people.

Considering the amount of popular support we can see Hamas and PIJ having in the streets of Gaza perhaps the people of Gaza need a sharp reminder of the realities of life. I think they should take complaints about civilian losses to the Hamas Ombudsman.

Ok, why don't we just casually assisnate some of the Russian Israelis who support Russia's invasion of Ukraine (some even financially I imagine). I'm sure that will go down well with you

Being a keyboard warrior doesn't merit having a bomb dropped on you.

[Zinneke]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

You've got your metal hat and ammo belt ready, why aren't you alongside the fighting forces? You and DavidB are two sides of the same coin, boastful of military action yet unable to be brave enough to serve. It's easy to throw sh**t from the Lowlands.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710633622338781436?s=20

We're just getting started. Let's see all those people dancing with our civilians' corpses in the street by Wednesday.

I don't think boasting about dead civilians, even if said civilians are misguided individuals, is constructive either way is it?

Israel has a "right " to reoccupy the Gaza Strip and remove elements that attacked it from there but not to indiscriminately kill non-armed people.

Considering the amount of popular support we can see Hamas and PIJ having in the streets of Gaza perhaps the people of Gaza need a sharp reminder of the realities of life. I think they should take complaints about civilian losses to the Hamas Ombudsman.

Ok, why don't we just casually assisnate some of the Russian Israelis who support Russia's invasion of Ukraine (some even financially I imagine). I'm sure that will go down well with you

Being a keyboard warrior doesn't merit having a bomb dropped on you.

How is that a like-for-like? The Ukraine has indeed targeting numerous Russian civilian targets for months now. I don't recall the west having much qualms about the people of Donetsk  

Ah now you are towing the famous "Donbass genocide" line of the Russian propaganda machine. Good to see you've gone off the deep end.

If you can't see how an indiscriminate bombing campaign against cilivians in Gaza is not an appropriate and proportionate response, do us all a favour and vote for Ben Gvir next election to turn your strip of sand into a theocracy.

I don't see where I adopted Russian propaganda.

The reality is that civilians die in conflicts, especially when their leadership actively seeks to hide between them. Moreover, the people of Gaza are themselves taking part in this war as evident in many videos showing many of them spontaneously joining the fighting since the early strike. So my general stance atm is 'em. The gloves are off.

Your general stance is what leads to such a cycle of violence in the first place.

It is understandable given the rage you must be feeling but levelling Gaza will have dramatic consequences for the strategic direction of Israel.

[Zinneke]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

It's a series of deliberate massacres of civilians. No one has a right to do that.

Will you condemn the Israeli government if they level Gaza to the ground as Hnv1 wants them to, Al? Laki is an easy target being a tankie, but will you be brave enough to play thread policeman when the bombs start dropping?

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710633622338781436?s=20
We're just getting started. Let's see all those people dancing with our civilians' corpses in the street by Wednesday.

I don't think boasting about dead civilians, even if said civilians are misguided individuals, is constructive either way is it?

Israel has a "right " to reoccupy the Gaza Strip and remove elements that attacked it from there but not to indiscriminately kill non-armed people.

Considering the amount of popular support we can see Hamas and PIJ having in the streets of Gaza perhaps the people of Gaza need a sharp reminder of the realities of life. I think they should take complaints about civilian losses to the Hamas Ombudsman.

Ok, why don't we just casually assisnate some of the Russian Israelis who support Russia's invasion of Ukraine (some even financially I imagine). I'm sure that will go down well with you

Being a keyboard warrior doesn't merit having a bomb dropped on you.

How is that a like-for-like? The Ukraine has indeed targeting numerous Russian civilian targets for months now. I don't recall the west having much qualms about the people of Donetsk  

Ah now you are towing the famous "Donbass genocide" line of the Russian propaganda machine. Good to see you've gone off the deep end.

If you can't see how an indiscriminate bombing campaign against cilivians in Gaza is not an appropriate and proportionate response, do us all a favour and vote for Ben Gvir next election to turn your strip of sand into a theocracy.

I don't see where I adopted Russian propaganda.

The reality is that civilians die in conflicts, especially when their leadership actively seeks to hide between them. Moreover, the people of Gaza are themselves taking part in this war as evident in many videos showing many of them spontaneously joining the fighting since the early strike. So my general stance atm is 'em. The gloves are off.

Your general stance is what leads to such a cycle of violence in the first place.

It is understandable given the rage you must be feeling but levelling Gaza will have dramatic consequences for the strategic direction of Israel.

There will have to be an unprecedented response, which will sadly lead to the death of many civilians. Israel simply cannot allow this brutal attack to go. At the very least, Hamas has to be toppled, and it'll require strong force. Simply can't expect Israel to immediately seek a ceasefire after this.

Yes, so reoccupy Gaza, get a regime change, and follow LOAC rules. Gaza has very little strategic value. Get the Egyptians involved somehownif they can politically afford it. They could administer the place.

[Zinneke]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

It's a series of deliberate massacres of civilians. No one has a right to do that.

Than why does Hamas do that?

Because Hamas serve their sponsors' and not some higher cause of Palestinian liberation. They're too busy porking some Russian hooker in Qatar to care.

[Zinneke]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

Serious question: do you know what is going on? Assuming ignorance to be generous, alternative is much worse

I just think you're wrong.

Sorry. I don't think a leftist can reasonably support Israel here.

It's a clear good vs evil conflict.

I want peace, but nobody wants peace including most people in this thread (or if they do it is without Palestine even existing).

Do you even know what is going on in Palestine. Do you support colonization of Palestinian lands by Israelis and continued oppression and so on.

I have the right of my own opinion and I believe i am right.

.

You can be pro-Palestinian self-determination and still think Hamas should be taken to account for the war crimes they have committed today? It isn't a difficult stance, even if the mechanics of a 2 state solution are gradually evaporating thanks to extremists on both sides.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711176380585537902

Feels a bit like this thread.

This thread is lacking the acid house tunes though. Maybe the Benny Hill theme tune is more fitting though.

I've started to pivot to thinking this was less about the Saudi-Israrl deal and more about an all out assault on the status quo and the slow drift the ME was taking. Hamas knew this kind of act would have a paradigm shift and also probably knew the consequences on things like the oil price would be anothe thorn in the side of the EU especially.

[Zinneke]

Are the reports that Netenyahu was hospitalised true? I can see someone that off the deep end of things powering on with the Kahanists when anybody concerned ilwith Israel's security would jettison them.

[Zinneke]

A full siege of Gaza is unacceptable. We are in the fog of war, but the response needs to both consider civilian lives and be proportionate to any military objective. Even in these conditions, civilians should get humanitarian aid. Fighting against 'human animals' (inappropriate language imo) does not mean all morality and restraint goes out the window.

Law of Armed Conflict seems to only apply to one side here.

It's quite evident some people here value Jewish lives above Arab ones.

[Zinneke]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

Well known tankie publication the Wall Street Journal. Back in 2009.

It's evident Bibi and Hamas have been best of frenemies.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/ELuttwak/status/1711445503240458452

[Zinneke]

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html


Looks like the NYT managed to find Hnv1

The holy land everybody. Baby killers and champagne corks popping off when bombs are dropped.

[Zinneke]

Link


Looks like the NYT managed to find Hnv1

The holy land everybody. Baber killers and champagne corks popping off when bombs are dropped.

Do you know anything about Sderot? God forbid people celebrate when the terrorists who rain rockets down on them day after day get their facilities and munitions knocked out. Did you harshly judge Americans for cheering when Osama was killed (which was good, btw?) Keep your self-righteous moral grandstanding to yourself. It does not somehow become unacceptable to celebrate the defeat of terrorism just because the terrorists are right on your doorstep instead of the other side of the world.

Last we heard Hnv is volunteering, despite being past reserves age, to do anything they can find for him to help Israel in this moment of crisis. I would hope you would do the same should Belgium be attacked. Going after him in such a way in this moment says much more about you than it does about him. He is clearly an honorable man and this speaks volumes.

I don’t have any issue with people like Hnv presenting themselves for duty after such an attack. I do have issue with people popping champagne corks and singing jingles while civilians and especially children are slaughtered. It shows how decrepit and morally vacuous the Holy Land and the Middle East in general is, a place so hardened by hatred its propaganda videos and media treatment of such an operation is almost indistinguishable from Fauda (which I enjoy watching on Netflix)

Incidentally this why I find also the blubbery eyed reaction from anyone who has.never been there completely inappropriate. There are posters here who think of Israelis and Palestinians the same way some people thought of the Irish during the Troubles i.e quasi-mythical beings to be elevated because they are somehow in a Kibbutzim the same way people think they identify with Japanese because of Manga or worse some weird religious reason. In the end there are arseholes who believe in massacring “the other side” and then there are the rest and for me there is not much distinguishing between the two regardless of which side they are on. Hnv for me has the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorist. He has had enough time for the rage to subside. Calling for an entire bantustan-city to be extinguished would be genocide in any other context.

[Zinneke]

Link


Looks like the NYT managed to find Hnv1

The holy land everybody. Baber killers and champagne corks popping off when bombs are dropped.

Do you know anything about Sderot? God forbid people celebrate when the terrorists who rain rockets down on them day after day get their facilities and munitions knocked out. Did you harshly judge Americans for cheering when Osama was killed (which was good, btw?) Keep your self-righteous moral grandstanding to yourself. It does not somehow become unacceptable to celebrate the defeat of terrorism just because the terrorists are right on your doorstep instead of the other side of the world.

Last we heard Hnv is volunteering, despite being past reserves age, to do anything they can find for him to help Israel in this moment of crisis. I would hope you would do the same should Belgium be attacked. Going after him in such a way in this moment says much more about you than it does about him. He is clearly an honorable man and this speaks volumes.

I don’t have any issue with people like Hnv presenting themselves for duty after such an attack. I do have issue with people popping champagne corks and singing jingles while civilians and especially children are slaughtered. It shows how decrepit and morally vacuous the Holy Land and the Middle East in general is, a place so hardened by hatred its propaganda videos and media treatment of such an operation is almost indistinguishable from Fauda (which I enjoy watching on Netflix)

Incidentally this why I find also the blubbery eyed reaction from anyone who has.never been there completely inappropriate. There are posters here who think of Israelis and Palestinians the same way some people thought of the Irish during the Troubles i.e quasi-mythical beings to be elevated because they are somehow in a Kibbutzim the same way people think they identify with Japanese because of Manga or worse some weird religious reason. In the end there are arseholes who believe in massacring “the other side” and then there are the rest and for me there is not much distinguishing between the two regardless of which side they are on. Hnv for me has the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorist. He has had enough time for the rage to subside. Calling for an entire bantustan-city to be extinguished would be genocide in any other context.

Did nobody click the link to see the article is from 2014? Come on.

The point is that both sides have elements of the populace so off the deep end that they love to celebrate death and destruction.

[Zinneke]

CNN reporting that US intel doubts Iranian involvement

Hamas throwing Iran under the bus says as much. Luttwaks theory that they are doing this to try and get support from a broader set of (Sunni) sponsors who broker an Israel-Palestine ceasefire with slightly better terms for them is no longer such a huge conspiracy. They saw the rapprochement between Israel and other Arab states and took the initiative to at least slam the breaks on such a development and throw in a black swan event.

https://twitter.com/ELuttwak/status/1711561129040785533

Israel should decapitate the leadership to ensure the seat at the table is occupied by a double agent.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1712139662402244781

[Zinneke]

Wartime coalition government agreed. A special cabinet consisting of Bibi, Gallant, and Gantz as members, and Dermer and Eisenkot as observers will be formed.

What's been the response of the Arab parties?

Condemning Hamas from wall to wall. Abbas and Ra’am severely, 40 Bedouins died on Saturday. Odeh denouncing violence and telling Hamas they were doing fine since 48 and calls on everyone to refrain from violence. Tibi condemned the violence and offered his help in negotiating release of prisoners.

No idea on Balad but they’ll most likely be banned by the next elections

I fully believe you, but do you have a source for Mansour Abbas' condemnation? On his Twitter I only see a "some people did something, please de-escalate" statement on October 7th and one to free the hostages on Oct 10th, but no condemnation in which Hamas is actually clearly named as the perpetrator of all of this.

I recall a press release early on Saturday morning with condemnation of the violence I don’t recall if he mentioned Hamas specifically or not

In that case I assume the press release was the same statement as he put on Twitter. If he didn't specifically mention Hamas, I wouldn't call that "condemning Hamas wall to wall".

[snip]

Can't believe we're still doing this "simple numbers game" fallacy. Even apart from the fact that the distinction between intentionally targeting civilians (which Palestinian terrorists do, all the time) vs. targeting legitimate targets (which Israel does) which regrettably leads to civilian deaths because Hamas hides behind its civilians gets completely lost here.

If you look at the next tweet it's mainly to contextualise the Israeli response to this massacre, as its their biggest casualty count by a country mile.

But also, yes, the fact that already more Palestinian civilians have perished in the bombings but many centre right to right wing figures legitimately don't give a damn, is terrible.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1712522371020521848

Just posting this not because I think the IDF should just stop, they do have a right to enter Gaza and remove Hamas. But look at the level of bombing and tell me it is proportionate when it 6 times the amount of bombs used against ISIS in a month by the West.

[Zinneke]

It's almost as if Gaza's population and indeed Palestine's, is as heterogeneous in its political and sociological profile as Israel's.

Shocking for those who think Arabs have a hive mind, I know.

[Zinneke]

It's almost as if Gaza's population and indeed Palestine's, is as heterogeneous in its political and sociological profile as Israel's.

Shocking for those who think Arabs have a hive mind, I know.

I don't know if this is directed at my post, but yes, obviously. My point is that the Israeli order to move a large amount of people in a short period of time is an order of a type which could only be obeyed universally with the collaboration of the local government, and not otherwise.

Not directed at you : I actually think you are clear sighted in your analysis of the ongoing events.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/pietercleppe/status/1713143633669415029

Von Der Leyen, not to be outdone by Michel's antics with regards to Ukraine, is exploiting this crisis to run her own foreign policy despite EU27 not having agreed on a common stance.

[Zinneke]

If Bibi and his assorted gang of bastards wants to get rid of the Palestinian inhabitants of Gaza for their genocidal vision of a "Second Nakba," then fine, by all means try it. But when the Gazans fire back in return, don't come crying and bitching to the collective West when the bodybags of IDF soldiers keeps rolling in.

I really don’t think Israel is afraid of Hamas’s ability to conduct a conventional war. They may be very dangerous when dealing with children & festival goers, less so when facing a professional army.

There’s lots of reasons to discourage Israel, fearing retaliation isn’t one of them.

OP was very crass, but I think you underestimate how damaging an assymetrocal urban warfare could be for the land forces of the IDF. They are for sure one of the top forces in the world but there's a reason they disengaged from Gaza in the first place. Urban warfare is already a night mare in a normal city, then you add the underground highly dense city of Gaza to the equation. Israel has no real "good" options. Ideally it would pursue a further deepening of diplomacy to ensure Gulf states join them in cracking down on the Hamas leadership in exchange for a commitment to 2 state solution and softening the settler policy. With Ben Gvir and Smotritch still in government this ain't happening.