Ben Shapiro burns Barbies

[oldtimer]

Why are we talking exclusively about the Last Jedi? It's not like these limp-dicked sexist morons don't hate movies which otherwise were well-reviewed and uncontroversial.

Because everyone was warned about it years before it came into existance, I remember South Park did entire episodes about Disney ruining Star Wars back in 2012.

Kathleen Kennedy's mistake was the she didn't gather her handpicked directors one weekend at a resort where they'd hammer out an outline for the new trilogy: where the heroes would be at the start and where they'd be at the end along with a general plot. Instead she let them do whatever they wanted which resulted in chaos and conflicting storylines.
That was what ruined the new trilogy, not increased representation of women and minorities like these online bozos suggest.

Or simply that Star Wars was supposed to be a Grand Wagnerian Space Soap Opera.

But those are designed to conclude on the 3rd Act or 3rd Movie.

Anything more would just make it into a TV series, where you would need to find extra material that wouldn't be that good.

That's how Indiana Jones was sunk too, rarely going over movie no.3 works unless the source material is already there (like in a book or rejected script).

The rival to Star Wars, Star Trek, is a perfect example of not setting expectations too high, because it is a TV show that jumps to the movies on occation for what feels like a special episode.

And it works most of the time because there is tons of source material from the TV show.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Last Jedi was definitely reviewed bombed by reactionary trolls at first but still ended up being an objectively bad movie that audiences legitimately hated that it didn’t make a difference in the end 🤷‍♂️

[Ferguson97]

Why would "misogynistic weirdos" attack The Last Jedi's audience score but not The Force Awakens? Both films had the same (female) protagonist.

I don't know, these lunatics aren't rational.

Stop doing Disney's marketing work for them. You're defending low-effort fanfic drivel being produced on an assembly line by a company that uses important social causes as easy fallback excuses when their products fail. Even if 5% of the negative reviews actually came from misogynists (a generous assumption), that doesn't explain why freaks like you and Lyndon feel the need to defend these abominations like they're your family members.

I'm not defending Disney or The Last Jedi, I'm defending my beliefs. I don't even think that most people who disliked The Last Jedi were sexist. I'm just saying it's dumb and objectively false to deny that the movie was review-bombed by misogynists.

You're making no sense at all. The Last Jedi currently has a 42% audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes. That is after RT scrubbed "suspicious" reviews from its system, banned bots, and recalibrated the way the score is calculated in favor of Disney's garbage films. What reason do we have to assume that that 42% is not reflective of how Star Wars fans felt about the movie? Because you saw one neckbeard on YouTube who complained about "wokeness" in Star Wars? Please.

I never said that the 42% figure wasn't reflective of how Star Wars fans felt about the movie.

[emailking]

Last Jedi was definitely reviewed bombed by reactionary trolls at first but still ended up being an objectively bad movie that audiences legitimately hated that it didn’t make a difference in the end 🤷‍♂️

It's not objective. It can't be.

[John Dule]

Last Jedi was definitely reviewed bombed by reactionary trolls at first but still ended up being an objectively bad movie that audiences legitimately hated that it didn’t make a difference in the end 🤷‍♂️

It's not objective. It can't be.

It absolutely is, and I will happily explain this once again to anyone who cannot get it through their thick skull.

[emailking]

Last Jedi was definitely reviewed bombed by reactionary trolls at first but still ended up being an objectively bad movie that audiences legitimately hated that it didn’t make a difference in the end 🤷‍♂️

It's not objective. It can't be.

It absolutely is, and I will happily explain this once again to anyone who cannot get it through their thick skull.

It's not objective. You haven't given any standard by which to evaluate it. So until then you're just bloviating.

[John Dule]

Last Jedi was definitely reviewed bombed by reactionary trolls at first but still ended up being an objectively bad movie that audiences legitimately hated that it didn’t make a difference in the end 🤷‍♂️

It's not objective. It can't be.

It absolutely is, and I will happily explain this once again to anyone who cannot get it through their thick skull.

It's not objective. You haven't given any standard by which to evaluate it. So until then you're just bloviating.

There is an obvious standard by which to measure all the Star Wars sequels: The definition of what a "sequel" is. A sequel is a subsequent installment in a narrative that further develops the story/theme/characters of the previous installment. Something that calls itself a "sequel" that fails to do this is by definition a failure.

The Star Wars sequels do not engage whatsoever with the existing storyline of the franchise. They include some of the same characters, but their story (insofar as it even exists) is entirely divorced from the existing narrative arc of the series. The Last Jedi is as much a "sequel" to its predecessors as Barbie is a "sequel" to Oppenheimer. Art may be subjective, but it is entirely possible to objectively determine whether a work of art fits a specific definition of a word. None of the films in the sequel trilogy qualify as sequels. At best it's false advertising. At worst, it's a complete structural failure on the most basic level of storytelling.

[emailking]

Now that you've laid out your standards by which to judge it, let's see your argument that it's not a good movie.

[Zinneke]

when does his sister get her Bristols out

[Landslide Lyndon]

It's not objective. You haven't given any standard by which to evaluate it. So until then you're just bloviating.

The kids are too immature to understand that art can't be objective by definition. This isn't physics or astronomy where there are empiric evidence and hard, irrefutable measurements that prove or disprove your theories and hypotheses.
One man might consider the Godfather a masterpiece, another man might consider it garbage. None of them is "right" and none of them is "wrong".

[emailking]

I'm the only person I know personally that doesn't like the Godfather, lol.

[John Dule]

Now that you've laid out your standards by which to judge it, let's see your argument that it's not a good movie.

None of the films in the Star Wars "sequel" trilogy are sequels. They are soft reboots disguised as sequels, and without the official Star Wars IP branding they would be unrecognizable as Star Wars films. Their battle sequences follow none of the existing rules of the franchise. The military and political situation in the films is entirely disconnected from the rest of the series. The returning characters occupy roles that make no sense, and for reasons that are never explained. There is no continuity between the conclusion to the narrative at the end of Return of the Jedi and the beginning of the new series. And this all applies even within the "sequel" trilogy-- The Last Jedi is similarly disconnected from The Force Awakens, and from what I've heard the same is true for The Rise of Skywalker. They might as well take place in an alternate universe.

You need to understand that this is not a criticism of the films when it comes to acting, visuals, dialogue, tone, pacing, or even plot. Yes, all those things suck too-- but I agree they are artistically subjective. What is not subjective, however, is the fundamental concept of what a narrative is. We can quibble about whether Twilight is a good book, but if Stephanie Meyer had marketed it as a sequel to the Odyssey, we would be able to objectively say that the book failed on the most basic level: It is not what it claims to be. The same applies here. The sequel trilogy films are objectively narrative failures. This makes them bad.

[emailking]

They're requels. Big whoop. Anyway, I guess go ahead and put me back on whenever you're ready then lol.

[ingemann]

The Last Jedi was the best of the sequels, but that doesn’t mean it was a good movie; in fact the movie was something of a mess. We have the fleet fleeing in something which feels like a few days, at the same time the adventure of Finn & Ross feels like it happens over a few week, while Rey arc feels like months. Poe’s arc is a confusing mess and a great example of tell don’t show.

Finn repeats his arch from the first movie and is continued undercut and humiliated for little reason. Kylo Ren arc is a mess but do work. Rey is robbed of the little character she had from the first movie and end up mostly a tool to move the plot along, the only times she seems a real character is when she interact with Kylo Ren.

The entire trip to rich casino world is a complete waste of time and only serve as a failed FU to original trilogy (Del Toro’s character is meant to be a deconstruction of Han Solo and …. sigh….subvert our expectations, and instead it all just seem meaningless and stupid).

The Luke arc works but just seems mean spirited and a general FU to people who likes Star Wars (like most of the people seeing the movie). Leia being a force user are fine, but Admiral HR manager have the potential to be an interesting character, but is undercut by her interaction with Poe not making a whole lot of sense.

At last Rian Johnson’s love for burning everything down and leave things as flaming ruins is not what the second director in a trilogy should do. I do think that as the first film in a trilogy this could have been an interesting strategy and then have used the second movie to have the character fight to establish a new status quo.

All in all Rian Johnson is just as much a gimmicky director as Abrams and both was terrible choices as directors for Star Wars but for different reasons. But I also agree with Landslide Lyndon that the biggest sin was the lack of overarching story for the trilogy. They knew it was a trilogy, they should have planned for a narrative running through all three movies.

[emailking]

There should have been better collaboration. But I liked both 7 & 8 even if they were different, but 9 was an attempt to sidestep 8 which I think is why it didn't work.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Now that you've laid out your standards by which to judge it, let's see your argument that it's not a good movie.

I can’t speak on Dule’s behalf but for me there are several reasons why TLJ is a bad film. To start with the job of a good sequel especially one that’s the middle movie of a trilogy is to build off the previous film, TLJ opts instead to crap all over TFO’s idea while not having any real good ideas if it’s own. Like the movie has 3 main plot threads with one going nowhere (Finn and Rose getting the hacker), 1 with a dumb forced conflict (the ship chase as Hodo had no reason not to tell people on the ship her plan), and 1 that was dedicated to crapping over a beloved ip (Rey/Luke/and Kylo)

[OSR stands with Israel]

The Last Jedi was the best of the sequels, but that doesn’t mean it was a good movie; in fact the movie was something of a mess. We have the fleet fleeing in something which feels like a few days, at the same time the adventure of Finn & Ross feels like it happens over a few week, while Rey arc feels like months. Poe’s arc is a confusing mess and a great example of tell don’t show.

Finn repeats his arch from the first movie and is continued undercut and humiliated for little reason. Kylo Ren arc is a mess but do work. Rey is robbed of the little character she had from the first movie and end up mostly a tool to move the plot along, the only times she seems a real character is when she interact with Kylo Ren.

The entire trip to rich casino world is a complete waste of time and only serve as a failed FU to original trilogy (Del Toro’s character is meant to be a deconstruction of Han Solo and …. sigh….subvert our expectations, and instead it all just seem meaningless and stupid).

The Luke arc works but just seems mean spirited and a general FU to people who likes Star Wars (like most of the people seeing the movie). Leia being a force user are fine, but Admiral HR manager have the potential to be an interesting character, but is undercut by her interaction with Poe not making a whole lot of sense.

At last Rian Johnson’s love for burning everything down and leave things as flaming ruins is not what the second director in a trilogy should do. I do think that as the first film in a trilogy this could have been an interesting strategy and then have used the second movie to have the character fight to establish a new status quo.

All in all Rian Johnson is just as much a gimmicky director as Abrams and both was terrible choices as directors for Star Wars but for different reasons. But I also agree with Landslide Lyndon that the biggest sin was the lack of overarching story for the trilogy. They knew it was a trilogy, they should have planned for a narrative running through all three movies.

Overtime I have come to blame the Force Awakens more too because while at first I thought it was the 5th best movie in the Saga(behind episodes 3-6), as time passes I realize how much it helped cause the issues of the sequels.

1. It was The Force Awakens that decided to basically destroy the idea of a New Jedi Order and have Luke walkaway and while yes The Last Jedi could have showing him train an order in secret, the fact is it would have been much easier to show the New Jedi Order in Episode 7.

Sure you could show its in turmoil with many of its members joining the Knights of Ren but we should have seen the New Jedi Order

2. Han was basically turned back into a Smuggler here and it would have been much better if he was shown as an Admiral of the Republic Military

3. Leia again was turned back into a rebel fighter when we should have seen her as a full fledged Jedi as well as a politician like both her biological mom and her adoptive father.

4. The First Order being able to build something like Starkiller base is completely lol worthy and it made no logical sense for them being able to do that in secret.

5. Trying to repeat Luke's story with Rey was a disaster and helped create the whole storyline around what her lineage was and that was just not needed. Rey should have been introduced out of the gate as the daughter of Luke Skywalker and shown as a Padawan near the completion of her training.



If Episode 7 had started out strong with all these plot points defined and didnt take the soft reboot/mystery box approach, then the worst things in episode 8 would not have happened to begin with.

[John Dule]

They're requels. Big whoop. Anyway, I guess go ahead and put me back on whenever you're ready then lol.

You do not get to "big whoop" that. If you have the slightest respect for the concept of narrative storytelling as an art form, explain your position.

[emailking]

Now that you've laid out your standards by which to judge it, let's see your argument that it's not a good movie.

I can’t speak on Dule’s behalf but for me there are several reasons why TLJ is a bad film. To start with the job of a good sequel especially one that’s the middle movie of a trilogy is to build off the previous film, TLJ opts instead to crap all over TFO’s idea while not having any real good ideas if it’s own. Like the movie has 3 main plot threads with one going nowhere (Finn and Rose getting the hacker), 1 with a dumb forced conflict (the ship chase as Hodo had no reason not to tell people on the ship her plan), and 1 that was dedicated to crapping over a beloved ip (Rey/Luke/and Kylo)

I can definitely understand why you didn't like it. But other opinions are possible. E.g. I do think Ep. 8 had a good idea re: the big bad. I thought it was bold and unexpected. And I don't think how Luke was portrayed craps on the character he was in the original trilogy. People can change a lot over time. We can fairly debate and/or disagree on those things. And so it's not objective, just two opinions.

[emailking]

They're requels. Big whoop. Anyway, I guess go ahead and put me back on whenever you're ready then lol.

You do not get to "big whoop" that. If you have the slightest respect for the concept of narrative storytelling as an art form, explain your position.

You should watch Scream & Scream VI. They address your points really nicely. I'm going back to the Last of Us now lol

[ingemann]

The Last Jedi was the best of the sequels, but that doesn’t mean it was a good movie; in fact the movie was something of a mess. We have the fleet fleeing in something which feels like a few days, at the same time the adventure of Finn & Ross feels like it happens over a few week, while Rey arc feels like months. Poe’s arc is a confusing mess and a great example of tell don’t show.

Finn repeats his arch from the first movie and is continued undercut and humiliated for little reason. Kylo Ren arc is a mess but do work. Rey is robbed of the little character she had from the first movie and end up mostly a tool to move the plot along, the only times she seems a real character is when she interact with Kylo Ren.

The entire trip to rich casino world is a complete waste of time and only serve as a failed FU to original trilogy (Del Toro’s character is meant to be a deconstruction of Han Solo and …. sigh….subvert our expectations, and instead it all just seem meaningless and stupid).

The Luke arc works but just seems mean spirited and a general FU to people who likes Star Wars (like most of the people seeing the movie). Leia being a force user are fine, but Admiral HR manager have the potential to be an interesting character, but is undercut by her interaction with Poe not making a whole lot of sense.

At last Rian Johnson’s love for burning everything down and leave things as flaming ruins is not what the second director in a trilogy should do. I do think that as the first film in a trilogy this could have been an interesting strategy and then have used the second movie to have the character fight to establish a new status quo.

All in all Rian Johnson is just as much a gimmicky director as Abrams and both was terrible choices as directors for Star Wars but for different reasons. But I also agree with Landslide Lyndon that the biggest sin was the lack of overarching story for the trilogy. They knew it was a trilogy, they should have planned for a narrative running through all three movies.

Overtime I have come to blame the Force Awakens more too because while at first I thought it was the 5th best movie in the Saga(behind episodes 3-6), as time passes I realize how much it helped cause the issues of the sequels.

1. It was The Force Awakens that decided to basically destroy the idea of a New Jedi Order and have Luke walkaway and while yes The Last Jedi could have showing him train an order in secret, the fact is it would have been much easier to show the New Jedi Order in Episode 7.

Sure you could show its in turmoil with many of its members joining the Knights of Ren but we should have seen the New Jedi Order

2. Han was basically turned back into a Smuggler here and it would have been much better if he was shown as an Admiral of the Republic Military

3. Leia again was turned back into a rebel fighter when we should have seen her as a full fledged Jedi as well as a politician like both her biological mom and her adoptive father.

4. The First Order being able to build something like Starkiller base is completely lol worthy and it made no logical sense for them being able to do that in secret.

5. Trying to repeat Luke's story with Rey was a disaster and helped create the whole storyline around what her lineage was and that was just not needed. Rey should have been introduced out of the gate as the daughter of Luke Skywalker and shown as a Padawan near the completion of her training.



If Episode 7 had started out strong with all these plot points defined and didnt take the soft reboot/mystery box approach, then the worst things in episode 8 would not have happened to begin with.

Yes, Abrams was every bit as much a disaster as Johnson, his mystery box destroyed Star Wars. But honestly the worst about Rey is the lack of character and the fact that she’s completely reactive. If Abrams had gone the route he did with her, she should have had more character than being lonely and being reactive.

I honestly liked the idea of building up the sequels up around Finn which the Force Awakens played with, and I think Rey should have been a desert rat; competent, hard and with a bit of cruel egoism, she also should not have had any mysterious past, she should simply be a orphan surviving in a cruel world. I think Poe should have been either Luke’s or Leia and Han’s child, with Kylo Ren being his cousin.

Han should not have returned to smuggling, I don’t care what he is doing, but he should do something new. Leia should simply be a politician and Luke should be training Jedi’s in a hidden temple safe from attacks by dark side users.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The Last Jedi is as much a "sequel" to its predecessors as Barbie is a "sequel" to Oppenheimer.

Less so. I did a Barbenheimer double feature with some friends the other night and the movies are--I am not making this up--legitimately more complementary in terms of theme than TLJ is with any previous Star Wars movie.

[OSR stands with Israel]

The Last Jedi was the best of the sequels, but that doesn’t mean it was a good movie; in fact the movie was something of a mess. We have the fleet fleeing in something which feels like a few days, at the same time the adventure of Finn & Ross feels like it happens over a few week, while Rey arc feels like months. Poe’s arc is a confusing mess and a great example of tell don’t show.

Finn repeats his arch from the first movie and is continued undercut and humiliated for little reason. Kylo Ren arc is a mess but do work. Rey is robbed of the little character she had from the first movie and end up mostly a tool to move the plot along, the only times she seems a real character is when she interact with Kylo Ren.

The entire trip to rich casino world is a complete waste of time and only serve as a failed FU to original trilogy (Del Toro’s character is meant to be a deconstruction of Han Solo and …. sigh….subvert our expectations, and instead it all just seem meaningless and stupid).

The Luke arc works but just seems mean spirited and a general FU to people who likes Star Wars (like most of the people seeing the movie). Leia being a force user are fine, but Admiral HR manager have the potential to be an interesting character, but is undercut by her interaction with Poe not making a whole lot of sense.

At last Rian Johnson’s love for burning everything down and leave things as flaming ruins is not what the second director in a trilogy should do. I do think that as the first film in a trilogy this could have been an interesting strategy and then have used the second movie to have the character fight to establish a new status quo.

All in all Rian Johnson is just as much a gimmicky director as Abrams and both was terrible choices as directors for Star Wars but for different reasons. But I also agree with Landslide Lyndon that the biggest sin was the lack of overarching story for the trilogy. They knew it was a trilogy, they should have planned for a narrative running through all three movies.

Overtime I have come to blame the Force Awakens more too because while at first I thought it was the 5th best movie in the Saga(behind episodes 3-6), as time passes I realize how much it helped cause the issues of the sequels.

1. It was The Force Awakens that decided to basically destroy the idea of a New Jedi Order and have Luke walkaway and while yes The Last Jedi could have showing him train an order in secret, the fact is it would have been much easier to show the New Jedi Order in Episode 7.

Sure you could show its in turmoil with many of its members joining the Knights of Ren but we should have seen the New Jedi Order

2. Han was basically turned back into a Smuggler here and it would have been much better if he was shown as an Admiral of the Republic Military

3. Leia again was turned back into a rebel fighter when we should have seen her as a full fledged Jedi as well as a politician like both her biological mom and her adoptive father.

4. The First Order being able to build something like Starkiller base is completely lol worthy and it made no logical sense for them being able to do that in secret.

5. Trying to repeat Luke's story with Rey was a disaster and helped create the whole storyline around what her lineage was and that was just not needed. Rey should have been introduced out of the gate as the daughter of Luke Skywalker and shown as a Padawan near the completion of her training.



If Episode 7 had started out strong with all these plot points defined and didnt take the soft reboot/mystery box approach, then the worst things in episode 8 would not have happened to begin with.

Yes, Abrams was every bit as much a disaster as Johnson, his mystery box destroyed Star Wars. But honestly the worst about Rey is the lack of character and the fact that she’s completely reactive. If Abrams had gone the route he did with her, she should have had more character than being lonely and being reactive.

I honestly liked the idea of building up the sequels up around Finn which the Force Awakens played with, and I think Rey should have been a desert rat; competent, hard and with a bit of cruel egoism, she also should not have had any mysterious past, she should simply be a orphan surviving in a cruel world. I think Poe should have been either Luke’s or Leia and Han’s child, with Kylo Ren being his cousin.

Han should not have returned to smuggling, I don’t care what he is doing, but he should do something new. Leia should simply be a politician and Luke should be training Jedi’s in a hidden temple safe from attacks by dark side users.

Yeah fully agreed and you didnt have to change that much of TFA to do this.

- You could have introduced Han as the head of the New Republic Spy Agency or something when he meets Rey and Finn in the Millennium Falcon

- Introduce Leia as the Chancellor of the Republic who is meeting secretly with the resistance

- Have Starkiller base be the Star Forge(an ancient, automated shipyard that greatly helps the First Order create their military)

- Have Finn be the Jedi, while Rey follows in the footsteps of Han Solo

- At the end of the movie Finn is the one who heads to Ahch-To to meet Luke where you see him training the New Jedi Order in secret. In later movies you can see that Finn would not need as much training as the other Padawans in the Order because he already is heavily trained in combat, and he would just need to learn how to use and control his force abilities.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

I think this thread has gotten off topic

[emailking]

I'm probably guilty there, but I figured it was kind of a light hearted topic and probably better in off topic anyway. There's another thread for Barbie politics.